Roses are red, violets are blue, singular they predates singular you.
this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2025
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Tom Scott also hated reddit before it was cool
People who were/are upset about singular they really don't understand that language change is pervasive and unstoppable. Shifts in pronoun agreement are no different.
Prescriptive grammarians cling to their (arbitrary) rules because they believe in a "pure" form of the language. That itself is a misunderstanding and just mirrors other common things some people do to divide the masses. Do not listen to such people.
As someone deeply engrained in the field of Linguistics for decades (personally, academically, and professionally), I can tell you that one of the biggest challenges in teaching people how language actually works is breaking down the preconceived notions they have about such things -- the exact notions those prescriptivists tout.
Again, the corrupt and unsound form of speaking in the plural number to a single person, you to one, instead of thou, contrary to the pure, plain, and single language of truth, thou to one, and you to more than one, which had always been used by God to men, and men to God, as well as one to another, from the oldest record of time till corrupt men, for corrupt ends, in later and corrupt times, to flatter, fawn, and work upon the corrupt nature in men, brought in that false and senseless way of speaking you to one, which has since corrupted the modern languages, and hath greatly debased the spirits and depraved the manners of men;—this evil custom I had been as forward in as others, and this I was now called out of, and required to cease from.
Thomas Ellwood, ca. late 1600s.
This kind of thinking is exactly what is meant by "prescriptive grammar". It is, in many ways, not even grammar, at least not in the scientific sense.
Amusingly enough, modern day prescriptivists would now probably flag Mr. Ellwood for a run-on sentence.
People who were/are upset about singular they really don't understand that language change is pervasive and unstoppable.
What do you mean by this, exactly? As someone who is deeply "engrained" (?) in the field of linguistics, surely you must be aware that singular "they" has been in usage since the 14th century.
It has been in usage a long time -- and yet, it is still considered "improper" English by many a grammarian (though improper English is as nonexistent as Standard American English).
In the 18th century, there was a push away from singular they on the basis that it did not fit within the logic of the agreement paradigm as some understood it. Most (if not all) rules suggesting it is poor usage derive from this thinking.
But this is exactly the problem: the fact that singular they arose naturally is the point. If it does not fit within one's understanding of the agreement paradigm, then that understanding is wrong. That is the key difference between prescriptivism and descriptivism, at least in the way those are often discussed in Linguistics.
If those grammarians cared about grammar as much as they claimed, they would be seeking to better describe it and not trying to change the way that others use it. When I say that they don't understand "language change is pervasive and unstoppable", I mean that prescriptivism is naturally conservative in suggesting that one should not deviate from some particular usage; that isn't how language works.
PS- I assume your quoting is to suggest "ingrained", but I'd argue that ingrained and engrained both work in this context. Even if we disagree there, spelling isn't really about language either -- simply one possible representation of it. Given that the purpose of language is information transfer, if I had put "ngrayned" above and you had gotten my meaning, then it would have served its purpose.
"Oh, you like prescriptive grammar? Well you're gonna like this even more, we're prescribing NEW grammar."
I still don't get why people have such an issue calling people what they want to be called.
You don't balk at a guy or a girl named Robin, or Alex, or any of a hundred different androgynous names....
But you take issue with "he", "she", and "them"?
Why?
My only problem, and to be clear this is entirely my problem, nobody else's, is that I'm so dumb, I frequently forget and call someone he/she when they prefer they/them. I fuck it up sometimes. I try, but decades of societal norms are getting in the way of me getting it right sometimes.
To every person who identifies as they/them please forgive me because I'm going to screw it up. Just correct me when I say it and hopefully in time my brain will stop making this mistake.
Because a bunch of bad faith actors have been carefully building an outrage-generating cash machine on the idea of 'culture wars' for decades.
Culture war, race war, nationalism wars....
As long as it's not a class war, they're okay with it.
I still don't get why people have such an issue calling people what they want to be called.
Why?
Normally I’m the type to wax philosophical for a few paragraphs about what the heck may be going on in their heads, but honestly I think it’s assholes being proud to be assholes. Punching down just feels so good. That and people who are suffering enough that they don’t care about others, but don’t realize they need to work on their mental health. Or they’ve been conditioned to see doing that as a character flaw or weakness. And of course the snowball effect of those people raising the next generation of assholes, building up some inertia behind the generational trauma.
Because underlying it all, regardless of which impactful arguments they think they are making or refuting, they just don’t want to be nice to people that are different.
Fair enough. I honestly just think they can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.
They'll cry foul on someone insisting on being called by they/them pronouns, arguing that it's an incorrect usage of they/them, or whatever the argument of the week is, then immediately use they/them pronouns for an individual in a different context without batting an eye, or even realizing what they've done.
Ignorance and hypocrisy.
Definitely, because the issue is not with the words but with the people who are different that they don't want to be nice to, lol.
It's pretty obvious when someone misgenders by mistake or reasonable ignorance. If someone gets upset about that it's probably because they feel insecure about it at that point in their journey. Just correct yourself if you catch it and move on, be open to civil feedback if you don't.
In any case if you feel unsafe around someone because of their behavior then consider spending less time around them. You don't have to feel like you're stepping on eggshells if you're making an honest effort to learn and improve.
By being offended I don't start calling them by their pronouns right away my brain immediately goes into defense mode and refuses to acknowledge whatever the fuck they identify as.
Fairly certain most don't get offended at genuine mistakes. It's doubling down that usually upsets people, and if you're the type to immediately go "well fuck you", I suspect that may be the case with you.
Thank you. I'm elated to hear that most don't get offended at genuine mistakes.
That's all I really needed.
Remember that it's the loud ones we hear most. If a hundred people just say nothing to avoid awkwardness, a dozen correct you politely and a single one kicks up a fuss, it's the fuss you will remember.
It's also easy to take corrections way more personally than they're intended. Someone saying "It's they, actually" isn't an expression of offense, even if it can feel bad to be corrected (because it feels bad to be "wrong"). Compare it to bumping into someone you didnt see, who then goes "watch out" to point out there's someone in the way – they're not necessarily upset, just informing you.
And finally, sometimes people are just irritable for whatever reason. They might not usually get offended, but for whatever reason will lash out that one time. To take the analogy of bumping into someone, perhaps their shoulder was already sore.
There certainly are some that do get offended. Some are so upset with the norms people grow up with they end up lashing out at those people instead. Some genuinely lack any understanding or patience for the other side of the issue. Some are just plain entitled. Some are looking for things to be upset at. Assholes exist in just about any sufficiently large grouping of people.
But for most I've known, it's really just about mutual respect, and often there's a base assumption of respect too. We all know how hard it can be to untrain a habit, and most people don't want unpleasantness. Don't let the exceptions get to you.
Ngl, took me a long while to get used to defaulting to "they" after a lifetime of assuming "he".
They's. Don't miscount me either.
Based
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