this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2025
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I recently took up Bazzite from mint and I love it! After using it for a few days I found out it was an immutable distro, after looking into what that is I thought it was a great idea. I love the idea of getting a fresh image for every update, I think for businesses/ less tech savvy people it adds another layer of protection from self harm because you can't mess with the root without extra steps.

For anyone who isn't familiar with immutable distros I attached a picture of mutable vs immutable, I don't want to describe it because I am still learning.

My question is: what does the community think of it?

Do the downsides outweigh the benefits or vice versa?

Could this help Linux reach more mainstream audiences?

Any other input would be appreciated!

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[–] [email protected] 63 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's definitely great for the mainstream. Think of Linus Sebastian who has somehow broken every OS except for SteamOS.

It's not great for me who uses Arch Linux btw with the expectation that if the system doesn't break on its own, then I will break it myself.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Honestly, I would say it isn't great for anyone who has to do something low level even once. Now that there are open source nvidia kernel drivers that has solved a pretty big issue for most people who would be interested in immutable distros, but there are still many other drivers and issues that your regular user may face.

One example off the top of my head is that flatpaks specifically can't ship systemd services if I recall correctly. A lot of wayland apps for thigns like input have to use daemons because of wayland's security model. Lact for AMD and now Nvidia GPU control, ydotool, or even gui versions of such tools for remapping input.

Snaps require custom kernel modules that aren't used outside of ubuntu, so I hesitate to trust them regardless of any of the other issues people have with them.

This basically leaves appimages which aren't available for everything and don't always seem to work at least not as reliably as flatpak. I even tried to package the rstudio forensic software as an appimage myself, so I could have an easy way to use that proprietary piece of software, but I just couldn't get it to work. I couldn't get it to work with distrobox either using the official methods they provide to install it on linux. I did get it working in a chroot for some reason, but it had graphical issues. In the end, I made a PKGBUILD for arch and got it working that way.

The point of all this is that a lot of times people say immutable is great for average, non tech savvy people, but I believe that literally everybody ends up needing to do low level stuff at least once or twice every so often. Which simply isn't a great experience since you end up having to do layering which throws these theoretical average users right back into the normal complexity of a mutable system, but with even more uncertainty in my opinion.

Now then with all of these caveats. I do still agree that immutable distros are great for the aforementioned group of people and I know this statement contradicts a lot of what I have described above. The reason why I think they are great for the less tech savvy people however isn't because of any actual technical merit of the systems design though. Immutable distros are great for people like Linus Sebastion because it limits what they can do. You simply have to accept what is there the same way that you have to on proprietary systems like Mac and Windows. Those systems force you to do things a certain way unlike Linux and that is what people like Linus need because they have no business mucking around with the system to begin with.

Lastly, all of this only works because devices like the Steam Deck are being run on specific hardware thus guaranteeing there compatibility. This is what we ultimately need. There would be much less need for low level operations to get drivers or change settings to make wifi or audio work right on a billion different devices if these people were buying linux compatible hardware in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

These are valid concerns but to me they sound more like lack of tooling rather than inherent disadvantages of immutable distros. Linux distros have not historically been designed from the ground up for immutability and it makes sense that there are issues that aren't handled optimally. Surely we can come up with clean and simple solutions to basic problems like setting up daemons and drivers if we work on it!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

You can install packages in immutable distros. It's just not as easy and recommended as a last resort.

With Universal Blue (Bazzite, Bluefin, Aurora) you can install packages with "layering". It's basically modifying the image by adding packages on top of what is shipped by the distro, and those packages get added each time the image is updated.

The better, more involved solution is to create your own image from the base image. That gives you a lot more control. You can even remove packages from the base image.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I personally vastly prefer mutable distros for my own system, but I understand the appeal for those who like them. As long as mutable distros remain an option I don't mind immutable distros.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

NixOS is kinda the best of both worlds, because it does everything in a way that is compatible with an immutable fs, but it doesn’t force you into abiding by immutability yourself.

You can always opt into immutability by using Impermanence, but I’ve never seen any reason to.

Edit: That said, the syntax has a steep learning curve and there are tons of annoying edge cases that spawn out of the measures it takes to properly isolate things. It can be a lot to micromanage, so if you’d rather just use your system more than tinker with it, it may not be a good fit.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Immutable ≠ atomic

Bazzite is atomic (not immutable), same with Silverblue and other Fedora variants (they're all atomic, even on their main page it says atomic). It's kinda misleading ngl

[–] priapus 3 points 1 day ago

Immutable ≠ atomic, but they generally come as a package deal. Bazzite, Silverblue, and all those other distro's that call themselves atomic are also immutable. An atomic distro is just one with atomic updates, and an immutable distro is any distro with a read-only core.

These distro's have started mainly calling themselves atomic because they agree that immutable is a poor description that generally confuses users.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Isn't that just their nomenclature for immutable?

What's the difference between an atomic distro and an immutable one?

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 day ago (1 children)
Immutable vs Mutable

weird        normal
[–] noodles 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

More like familiar and unfamiliar

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago

For my needs, I've build a static system with buildroot for a pi zero. No updates, no modifications on the system, no remote access. Some directories are in tempfs, and after a reboot the system is fresh again. when needed, I removed the sd card and copy a new image

I use this board for a pulseaudio/mpd player, it's not intended for a desktop usage, but I'm happy beiing able to configure a system like this one. For me, there is no maintenance, and this is exactly what I wanted

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)
  • You can still apply updates live, e.g. on Bazzite (Fedora Atomic) with the --apply-live tag (or however it's spelled).
  • The root partition isn't read only per se, but you have to change the upstream image itself instead of the one booted right now. You can use the uBlue-Builder for example to make your own custom Bazzite spin just for you if you want.
  • Both aren't inherently secure or insecure. It's harder to brick your system, yeah, for sure, but you can still fuck up some partitions or get malware. It's just better because everything is transparently identifiable (ostree works like git), saved (fallback images), containerised and reproducible.
  • And you can still install system software, e.g. by layering it via rpm-ostree. Or use rootful containers in Distrobox and keep using apt or Pacman in there.
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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago

I love building my own uBlue image. Tinkering is done in toolbox containers, definite changes are baked into the image. Completely custom (to me) and when you get it right it will just work anywhere. If I would brick my PC/storage I can just boot up another and restore my (back-upped) home dir with very little effort.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 day ago

I think they're great. I've got two Linux newbies running some Ublue variant with no issues

[–] noodles 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (18 children)

Secure != stable Immutable distros aren't always more secure but rather more stable and hard to break Also btw nixos can apply updates without rebooting

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I am a big fan of breaking my system

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Stock fedora is just for you my man, it breaks by itself

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Is there debian based immutable distro?

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