this post was submitted on 20 Jun 2023
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Fediverse

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This magazine is dedicated to discussions on the federated social networking ecosystem, which includes decentralized and open-source social media platforms. Whether you are a user, developer, or simply interested in the concept of decentralized social media, this is the place for you. Here you can share your knowledge, ask questions, and engage in discussions on topics such as the benefits and challenges of decentralized social media, new and existing federated platforms, and more. From the latest developments and trends to ethical considerations and the future of federated social media, this category covers a wide range of topics related to the Fediverse.

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Imagine a world without platform lock-in, where no ban or billionaire could take down your social network. That’s what ActivityPub has planned.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

I have my skepticisms about this whole thing. While I know the answer is "they will be defederated", what if one of the big ones, like lemmy.world or lemmy.ml get huge, then sell out to something like Meta?

We lost 3rd party apps and we are morning the biggest breakup we've ever had with reddit. Say the server you've had your account on for so long and all your content gets taken over by a giant with strategically placed adds that are upvoted by bot armies for visibility. They may get defederated, but that means Meta just came in and destroyed a huge chunk of users accounts while gaining some ad revenue for a bit until the community dies. Everyone has to actively pack up their shit and move to another instance. I guess the loyalty to an account is less with a lack of account karma so it wouldn't burn as bad.

You would lose all your subscribed communities when you are forced to move out. That would suck. Too bad you couldn't export like a .db file from your account on the way out and upload it to another account on another instance. Possibly some sort of encrypted key so you can auto add as a mod to any community you were modding on your previous account. No clue if that makes any sense. Kinda Like a lemmy "Go-Bag"?

I don't know, just thinking ahead of the shenanigans that's going to happen if this really starts making a dent in huge corporations user counts.

[–] [email protected] 53 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Mastondon does allow you to export your profiles and set them up on a different instance; I reckon some folks will figure out a solution on how to easily jump ship.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is one of the biggest things I think Lemmy needs. You should be able to create a backup of your profile and export/import it into another instance. That way if something happens or you have a problem with the instance admins you can migrate with no loss or minimal loss to your account.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)

i'll be honest hearing lemmy while being on kbin threw me into a loop, made me wonder if i was in a lemmy community and not a kbin magazine lmao. i gotta get used to this.

But yeah, both Lemmy and Kbin need the same flexibility of Mastodon. The more easily one can move, the less likely megacorps will see value in gobbling up instances. Long-term goal might be cross-platform profile compatibility, but right now that's a pipe dream.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

To be fair, kbine doesn't label things very well right now. I'm using both, and Lemmy makes it far more clear where a post is coming from.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

That's one annoying thing with kbin, the other being no quick access to subs list. I still like it better than Lemmy right now.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

For Kbin, you might want to check out the @kbinStyles magazine. Folks are creating tweaks for Kbin in the meantime that improve functionality like this :)

e.g. https://kbin.social/m/kbinStyles/t/27201/kbin-enhancement-script-QOL-updates-for-the-kbin-UI

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Yep, the devs have said it's on the radar, but will probably be a while. Not too many contributors and their priority is to work on stability and bug fixes first

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

I think once lemmy has this, and it’s easy, it’ll achieve even greater success.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I think one limiting factor that has yet to be addressed is that you can move your profile, but you can't move your content. Another is identity. How do you know which Mastodon server has an authoritative (i.e. "blue-check") profile for a given person/entity?

edit: Search indexing is also a huge problem. While it's possible to create a search index over all content local to a given server, maintaining an index over all content on all servers that you federate is a much bigger problem.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Mastodon has the seeds of this authority in that you can put links on your profile and then have them flagged by putting code on the website. So my Mastodon account could have a link to kazuyadarklightofficial.com and the flag proves I own/control that site. So if you know/can determine that site is THE KazuyaDarklight site, then you know you have the right Mastodon account.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I've been online for close to 30 years now.

I've lost count of the number of forums I've had to leave because they went to shit.

I always find another one.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Same here. My domain name and email address will turn 30 next March. I've been doing this since the days when Usenet posts were transmitted across sites using UUCP.

We will always find the next place. Reddit has peaked and is destroying itself and it's time to move on.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (8 children)

That's why we need to decentralize. If there's 100 communities over 50 servers, then it doesn't matter which website goes down or defederates. It's only if everyone stays on one or two instances that the fediverse breaks.

Over on mastodon, big instances have gone down, people notice but it isnt the end of the world.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I mean I can't be the only one who doesn't enjoy the idea of setting up a new account if the ship you picked in the beginning sinks a few years later. You make it sound so simple but at least to me it would be a huge drag.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

This is why having frictionless one-button migration seems really important to me. Imagine that your Lemmy client keeps a constant backup of your profile so that if and when your instance go down, you can set up shop somewhere else super easily. Or when an instance get too big, or then you feel like it, you can instance-hop super simply. This is the future I'd want. You control your profile, noone else.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

My POV is a bit different than most people, because I built my own ship, and I reach out to other instances using it.

Because I agree, I don't want to be relying on someone else to maybe grace me with a fediverse account.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

@Guy_Fieris_Hair I doubt that lemmy.ml or lemmy as a whole would sell-out to Facebook as they are Tankies.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Popular pieces of software that's part of the fediverse usually give you either:

  1. Export options - manual export options intended for GDPR-Compliance and peace of mind
  2. Account Move options - Mastodon is best known for this, as you can migrate your profile (but not your posts and followers) to another instance. Anyone which then visits your old page will have it blurred out, linking to your new one.

#2 could be expanded in the case of Kbin and Lemmy to also include subscribed communities/magazines, settings and some other things where Federation allows for it.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I wonder if there could be a universal subscribed communities + followed users data format people could export before they move instances. Hard part would be getting everyone to use it

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What would selling out to Meta look like?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Letting Facebook host in return for ads.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Not only ads. Less privacy.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Jury is till out it’s way too early to tell. The fediverse seems very unrefined still (which I kind of enjoy tbh). If its truly going “save the internet”, a lot of refining needs to be done in order to attract at a mainstream scale.

It’s been really refreshing so far though.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It is really strange, in that it WORKS like the old Wild West of Web 2.0 when it was all blogs and RSS feeds but it doesn't FEEL like the Wild West. It's definitely civilization here.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

WORKS like the old Wild West of Web 2.0

Well said

I’m hoping that now that we have seen a fair share of social media companies rise and fall and why they’ve fallen, many people will begin to find out what they are looking for in a social media network.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

agreed. It’s got bugs, and scalability issues, but i’m liking to “quirkiness” of it. I’ve most most of my stuff to the fediverse so far. It’ll need a lot more polishing to attract mainstream attention, but it’s nice to have this option.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

“But at the very least, if a server goes down, it should not be catastrophic to you.” Your social world shouldn’t live inside an app, she says, or depend on a company staying solvent. It should, and could, be much bigger than that.

Exactly

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's like Web 1.0, all over again, but this time with better technology

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Alright so I'm skeptical we'll keep a useful level of signal to noise the whole time (Usenet). But, for the first time in forever I'm optimistic, there's a lot more technical talent and awareness of how bad it can go this time around, which is amazing to see.

I still don't think people have grappled with the fact there's no total "erase" button even if you can port your data.

But we have open standards again, it feels weird.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Save the internet from what? Being owned by large corporations? Maybe. Stopping the spread of misinformation through echo chambers and getting rid of hate speech? No, definitely not.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It already has for me. Most websites I visit today I run myself. How amazing is that?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It’s the digital equivalent of off-grid living. I love how much useful tooling I can host myself on my little cluster, and it is empowering that $megacorp can’t hold it hostage or shove hostile tracking and advertising everywhere. The Fedeverse feels much closer to the spirit of the internet in its infancy.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I ahve massive issues being federated with Facebook, twitter and the other billionaire tech giants. No thanks. I do NOT want them to be able to feed me information. Corporations should have zero ability to discuss or provide input into the lives or regular humans. They have done enough damage and it's time they be silenced.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have hope but my big concern is the scalability/efficiency of the thing. SOOoo much data is getting copied and duplicated across the federation links, and in some ways that's good, but it also bloats the overall cost of operation and that bloat makes it all the harder for altruism and donations alone to keep things afloat.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Realcaseyrollins was on this part of the fediverse for a long time, he routinely posts really decent stuff. He has a lot of posts on communities on narwhal.city that can be federated back here.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I heard a sentiment that activitypub and fediverse protocols aren't great for privacy? I'll be honest this was from a reddit comment and was probably biased. I don't know enough about this yet. But I want to learn more!

Anyone have links?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I think it depends on what you mean by privacy. But I do recommend you read what the Electronic Frontier Foundation has to say about the fediverse. They released an extensive series about it last year: Leaving Twitter's Walled Garden & The Fediverse Could Be Awesome (If We Don’t Screw It Up).

Here's the part that addresses your concern:

Take privacy: the default with incumbent platforms is usually an all-or-nothing bargain where you accept a platform’s terms or delete your account. The privacy dashboards buried deep in the platform’s settings are a way to tinker in the margins, but even if you untick every box, the big commercial services still harvest vast amounts of your data. To rely on these major platforms is to lose critical autonomy over your privacy, your security, and your free expression.

This handful of companies also share a single business model, based upon tracking us. Not only is this invasion of privacy creepy, but also the vast, frequently unnecessary amount and kinds of data being collected – your location, your friends and other contacts, your thoughts, and more – are often shared, leaked, and sold. They are also used to create inferences about you that can deeply impact your life.

Even if you don’t mind having your data harvested, the mere act of collecting all of this sensitive information in one place makes for a toxic asset. A single bad lapse in security can compromise the privacy and safety of hundreds of millions of people. And once gathered, the information can be shared or demanded by law enforcement. Law enforcement access is even more worrisome in post-Dobbs America, where we already see criminal prosecutions based in part upon people’s social media activities.

We’re also exhausted by social media’s often parasitic role in our lives. Many platforms are optimized to keep us scrolling and posting, and to prevent us from looking away. There’s precious little you can do to turn off these enticements and suggestions, despite the growing recognition that they can have a detrimental effect on our mental health and on our public discourse. Dis- and misinformation, harassment and bullying have thrived in this environment.

There’s also the impossible task of global content moderation at scale. Content moderation fails on two fronts: first, users all over the world have seen that platforms fail to remove extremely harmful content, including disinformation and incitement that is forbidden by the platforms’ own policies. At the same time, platforms improperly remove numerous forms of vital expression, especially from those with little social power. To add insult to injury, users are given few options for appeal or restoration.

These failures have triggered a mounting backlash. On both sides of the U.S. political spectrum, there’s been a flurry of ill-considered legislation aimed at regulating social media moderation practices. Outside of the U.S. we’ve seen multiple “online harms” proposals that are likely to make things worse for users, especially the most marginalized and vulnerable, and don’t meaningfully give everyday people more say over their online life. In some places, such as Turkey, bad legislation is already a reality.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

When you post stuff on federated instances, it gets copied to the numerous servers that are federating with it. If you delete something, it'll only get deleted on one server. The other servers might also delete it, but there's a chance that some servers might still keep the deleted posts. So I'd just say be considerate and think twice before posting, because it can't be deleted as easily.

https://joinfediverse.wiki/Best_practices#Data_Privacy

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They're not because you should assume that everything you say is public and can't be deleted as a remote server may have a copy of what you said.

The key here is to not use identifiable information. Use a pseudonym.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

man am I glad that my real name is so generic that you don't find me unless you specifically search for keywords associated with what I do (e.g "Codeberg" or "Mastodon")

it's truly great to have the same name as somebody famous' brother.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

That's what ActivityPub has planned.

Well, that is kind of what ActivityPub is already allowing us to do.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

ACTIVITYPUB!

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