this post was submitted on 29 Sep 2024
305 points (97.8% liked)

World News

39174 readers
2463 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Former German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger says Western leaders should be making more threats and be willing to follow them through.

The West should spend less time fretting about Russian President Vladimir Putin's red lines and set its own, says veteran German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger. 

“Russia keeps saying, if you do this, if you cross this or that red line, we might escalate,” said the 78-year-old onetime chairman of the Munich Security Conference. “Why don't we turn this thing around and say to them: ‘We have lines and if you bomb one more civilian building, then you shouldn't be surprised if, say, we deliver Taurus cruise missiles or America allows Ukraine to strike military targets inside Russia’?”

 That way the onus will be on Moscow to decide whether to cross the red lines — or face the consequences.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 53 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I'm no "veteran diplomat" but in my experience it is only the people without real power who make threats. When you have power, you don't need to make threats. You just respond to events with whatever proportionate response is necessary and within your capability. You don't need to provide a preview of what those responses will be.

Setting "red lines" looks to me like weakness because it is essentially a plea to the other side not to do those things that you don't want them to do, and it invites them to push up to those red lines, do anything but, and test their boundaries to test your commitment to them.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago

Additionally, even if it didn't look weak, setting an established red line means Russia can snuggle right up to the line.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

The us, and perhaps the west in general, hasn't really used red lines since Obama threatened Syria if they used chemical weapons and then didn't follow through.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I disagree. Scaled down to small and harmless it's like handling kids. You explain what you don't want them to do and what happens/you're going to do if they continue. Now it's crucial you go through with what you threatened them with.

If you either don't deliver on the "threat" or don't act as you said you would, guess what happens? They just continue or it even gets worse.

Of course it's more delicate/difficult when handling with powerful and intelligent adults but it's at least similar. Not issuing threats is just not communicating. If you then just act (violently), things are more likely to escalate.

Edit: or back to the kids analogy: don't tell them anything but smack them once they went too far: may help in that instance but they'll just learn to better avoid you and do shit behind your back.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

If you think that international diplomacy between nation states is like handling kids then you're not a veteran diplomat either.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Red line: invasion of Ukraine

Response: F-22s over Ukrainian skies

[–] [email protected] 44 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Meanwhile Israel

Red line: no red lines
Response: they have right to defend themself

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 months ago (1 children)

There is a red line. The west keeps saying over and over again that they must defend themselves within international law.

The problem is that they either ignore the red line or deny that it was ever crossed.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

They'll dead ass look you in the eye and tell you that the colour red doesn't exist, without a single fuck given.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago (7 children)

It's insane. Shows how much of international politics isn't "Which country benefits from what", but "What levers of decisionmaking are manipulated by whom". A little lobbying and foreign PR goes a long way.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Laws are meaningless if criminals are not held accountable. It doesn't matter that anyone who supports Israel supports fascism — 30% of US voters support fascism. The fact is that as long as the US (and 5 eyes) supports and arms Netanyahu, the genocide will continue; everything they declare to the contrary is nothing more than a virtue signal.

The ICJ and all opposition is meaningless unless they are willing to take collective economic and military action again Israel and its supporters. They will not.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They have that right tough. It's just what we are all witnessing goes "a little" further than that.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They have that right tough

hard disagree. Maybe if a foreign country wanted to create a Jewish ethnostate it should have set the borders inside its own sovereign lands instead of displacing 300k people it didn't give a shit about and causing an immediate regional war and decades of ongoing conflict?

Maybe then we could consider Israel a real country. Seeing how it didn't go that way? What israel deserves is to dissolve

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago (8 children)

And in your suggested dissolution of the state of Israel, what happens then? And what happens to the Jews that now live there?

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad 4 points 2 months ago (13 children)

I think if we're following history and making a point we should put new israel on top of your home. No problem right?

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] eacapesamsara 1 points 2 months ago (4 children)

The same thing that happened to the Jews that lived there for millenia before Israel was created, the become normal citizens with no special rights or mandates, and are actually subject to laws intended on keeping all people safe, not just Jews. It worked continuously for millenia through dozens of different ruling states with a half dozen ruling religions, the state of Israel and it's fascism utilizing ng Jewish supremacy as a base ideology fucked that up.

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm not sure that is as useful as it sounds. Yes you are trying to establish some pressure but then you might get lost on technicalities of their actions instead of focusing on the bigger picture.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago (2 children)

There's no "might". The US set a red line of an invasion in Rafah. Israel rolled right over that line with tanks and airstrikes. Nothing happened.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Something did happen though, the US gave even more aid and support to Israel.

[–] MelastSB 4 points 2 months ago

Yes, but Russia doesn't have nuclear weap... I mean, Russia doesn't control Congr... Totally different situation ok!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

putins are fictional and nothing happens. If we do do one it will happen and right now they don't want to get that involved.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

Republicans.

[–] index 2 points 2 months ago

Make sure to listen very well to what former germans veteran diplomats have to say and go back to work

load more comments
view more: next ›