this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2024
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Linus Torvalds Speaks on the the divide between Rust and C Linux developers an the future Linux. Will things like fragmentation among the open source community hurt the Linux Kernel? We'll listen to the Creator of Linux.

For the full key note, checkout: Keynote: Linus Torvalds in Conversation with Dirk Hohndel

The Register's summary: Torvalds weighs in on 'nasty' Rust vs C for Linux debate

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[–] [email protected] 480 points 3 months ago (17 children)

I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn't like their info in video form. My attempt to summarize what Linus says:

He enjoys the arguments, it's nice that Rust has livened up the discussion. It shows that people care.

It's more contentious than it should be sometimes with religious overtones reminiscent of vi versus emacs. Some like it, some don't, and that's okay.

Too early to see if Rust in the kernel ultimately fails or succeeds, that will take time, but he's optimistic about it.

The kernel is not normal C. They use tools that enforce rules that are not part of the language, including memory safety infrastructure. This has been incrementally added over a long time, which is what allowed people to do it without the kind of outcry that the Rust efforts produce by trying to change things more quickly.

There aren't many languages that can deal with system issues, so unless you want to use assembler it's going to be C, C-like, or Rust. So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.

If you make your own he's looking forward to seeing it.

[–] [email protected] 80 points 3 months ago

I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn’t like their info in video form.

I love you.

[–] [email protected] 66 points 3 months ago

This is a great summary. Thanks!

[–] [email protected] 46 points 3 months ago (6 children)

C, C-like, or Rust

As always, Ada gets no respect.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Start the linuxa or alinux project and off you trot. Find a better name than I did here and you'll be fine.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Ladux? Linda? +Linux, pronounced "Add a Linux" -> Ada Linux? LinLace?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Images of smoking Eastern European jalopy intensifies.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago
[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

Anixa for the win

[–] nyan 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Nor does Forth (which used to be a common choice for "first thing to bootstrap on this new chip architecture we have no real OS for yet"). Alas, they're just not popular languages these days.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Have you actually ever used Ada? It's like programming with handcuffs on.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 months ago

Good human.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 3 months ago

So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust

There's one called Redox that is entirely written in Rust. Still in fairly early stages, though. https://www.redox-os.org/

[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 months ago (3 children)

If you make your own he's looking forward to seeing it.

Not a programmer whatsoever but I've heard about Zig and people comparing it to Rust, what's the deal with it?

[–] [email protected] 33 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Zig is indeed designed specifically for such tasks as system programming and interoperability with C code. However it is not yet ready for production usage as necessary infrastructure is not yet done and each new version introduces breaking changes. Developers recomend waiting version 1.0 before using it in any serious project.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Zig is "c", but modern and safe.

The big selling points compared to Rust are:

  • A better syntax
  • No hidden control flow
  • No hidden memory allocation
  • Really great interop with C (it's almost as if you just include the C code as you would in a C code base...)
  • Fast compile time
  • it's more readable
  • it's simpler to learn

The syntax is really close to the C language; any C programmer can pick up Zig really fast.

IMO Zig is a far better choice to go in the kernel than Rust.

Linux has tried to include CPP in it, and it failed.

So imagine if trying to fit in a C-like cousin failed, how far they are to fit an alien language like Rust...

For more information: https://ziglang.org/learn/why_zig_rust_d_cpp/

[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Zig is "c", but modern and safe.

Zig is safer than C, but not on a level that is comparable to Rust, so it lacks its biggest selling point. Unfortunately just being a more modern language is not enough to sell it.

So imagine if trying to fit in a C-like cousin failed

C++ was not added to Linux because Linus Torvalds thought it was an horrible language, not because it was not possible to integrate in the kernel.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

Zig has other selling points, that are arguably more suitable for system programming. Rust's obsession with safety (which is still not absolute even in rust) is not the only thing to consider.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Zig is a very new and immature language. It won't be kernel-ready for at l'East another 10 years.

a better syntax

That's pretty suggestive. Rust syntax is pretty good. Postfix try is just better for example.

Zig also uses special syntax for things like error and nullability instead of having them just be enums, making the language more complex and less flexible for no benefit.

Syntax is also not everything. Rust has extremely good error messages. Going through Zig's learning documentation, half the error messages are unreadable because I have to scroll to see the actual error and data because it's on the same line as the absolute path as the file were the error comes from

No hidden memory allocation

That's a library design question, not a language question. Rust for Linux uses its own data collections that don't perform hidden memory allocations instead of the ones from the standard library.

it's more readable

I don't know, Rust is one of the most readablelangueage for me.

Fast compile time

Is it still the case once you have a very large project and make use of comptime?

it's simpler to learn

Not true. Because it doesn't have the guardrails that rust has, you must build a mental model of where the guardrails should be so you don't make mistakes. Arguably this is something that C maintainers already know how to do, but it's also not something they do flawlessly from just looking at the bugs that regularly need to be fixed.

Being able to write code faster does not equate being able to write correct code faster.

Really great interop with C

Yes, because it's basically C with some syntax sugar. Rust is a Generational change.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 3 months ago

Zig is feasible for systems programming and some, (most notably, the Primeagen in one video) claim it should have gone into the kernel instead of Rust, but I don't know Zig so I don't feel qualified to comment beyond that.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 months ago

Thank you for the summary!

[–] [email protected] 21 points 3 months ago (2 children)

On a tangential note, what does Linus used, Vi or Emacs?

[–] [email protected] 21 points 3 months ago (2 children)

He uses a version of Emacs called MicroEmacs.

I recall seeing his MicroEmacs configuration a while back when I was exploring options to start using Emacs.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

TIL that version appears to be on the AUR: MicroEMACS/PK 4.0.15 customized by Linus Torvalds.

Last updated in 2014, it probably has serious cobwebs now. Even the upstream hasn't been touched in 6 years.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

MicroEmacs

In testing, to settle a bet by a rabid cult-of-vi peer, I opened a given set of files in each editor, each a day apart because I couldn't be arsed to clear caches. This guy, otherwise a prince, was railing about emacs, but otherwise suffered days of waiting.

10/10 the memory usage by his precious vi was same-or-more than emacs.

There's so many shared libs pulled in by the shell that all the fuddy doomsaying about bloat is now just noise.

I avoid vi because even in 1992 it was crusty and wrong-headed. 30 years on the hard-headed cult and the app haven't changed.

I don't see how microEmacs can improve on what we have by default, and I worry that the more niche the product is the harder it will be to find answers online. But I'm willing to be swayed if anyone can pitch its virtues.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

MicroEmacs was written in 1985 and has nothing to do with GNU Emacs (which people just call Emacs these days). It’s entirely outside of the vi-vs-emacs war.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 months ago

Doing the lord's work, thank you.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.

Isn't there Redox OS?

Edit: yes, it's still alive and kicking.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I think Linus mentioned Redox directly during the interview

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

vi versus emacs

You write "vi versus the world" funny.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

I think it can be summed up to C is more mature than Rust so we wait for Rust to shine Rust can overcome some complex things in C and vice versa

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Thank you for the write-up!!

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[–] [email protected] 42 points 3 months ago (4 children)

I don't want to watch a video about it.

I'd like to know it, but a couple of sentences wouldn't have hurt

[–] [email protected] 31 points 3 months ago (1 children)

FWIW, it's a 9 min video and doesn't contain anything earth shattering or easily summarized. Basically there is some friction between C and Rust devs, and Linus doesn't think that it's such a bad thing (there has be interesting discussion) and it's way too early to call Rust in the kernel a failure.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Rust is harder to write but infinitely safer, and equivalent in speed.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 3 months ago (6 children)

It's harder to write because it forces you to be careful.

[–] atzanteol 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It forces you to be careful in the way it wants you to be careful. Which is fine, but it makes it a strange beastie for anyone not used to it.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Yes

But the trade off is well worth it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago

C is easier to get a program to compile. Rust is easier to get a program working correctly.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago

And because it looks like C, JavaScript, Bash and a few others all mixed up together.

I've heard Rust described as “Rust is what you get when you put all the good features of other programming languages together. You can't read it, but it's freaking fast!”

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This video is full of jarring edits which initially made me wonder if someone had cut out words or phrases to create an abbreviated version. But, then I realized there are way too many of them to have been done manually. I checked the full original video and from the few edits i manually checked it seems like it is just inconsequential pauses etc that were removed: for instance, when Linus says "the other side of that picture" in the original there is an extra "p" sound which is removed here.

Yet another irritating and unnecessary application of neural networks, I guess.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Spoken like a wise elder!

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