"ZE ROCKETS GO UP! WHO CARES VERE ZEY COME DOWN! ZATS NOT MY DEPARTMENT"
- Werner Von Braun
this post was submitted on 12 Mar 2024
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Some might say he's hypocritical
He'll just say he's apolitical
That's clever. Yours?
Haha no, I wish. The person I'm replying to and I are both referencing a song by the ever-brilliant Tom Lehrer
Was literally about to ask if they were song lyrics, they read exactly like them.
Actual quote from Von Braun:
The rocket worked perfectly except for landing on the wrong planet
Yeah he built the V2s, but it does generally seem like he was happier when he could use his talents for good rather than evil.
he was happy enough to use slave labor to build his death machines.
the attacks from V-2s resulted in the deaths of an estimated 9,000 civilians and military personnel, while a further 12,000 laborers and concentration camp prisoners died as a result of their forced participation in the production of the weapons.
incredible man, truly.
I didn't know about that bit, just had a read up on his wiki page under the "slave labour" section.
Von Braun later stated that he was aware of the treatment of prisoners, but felt helpless to change the situation. When asked if von Braun could have protested against the brutal treatment of the slave laborers, von Braun team member Konrad Dannenberg (a member of the Nazi party since 1932) told The Huntsville Times: "If he had done it, in my opinion, he would have been shot on the spot."
Fucked up situation to be in. I'm sure we all think we'd do the right thing but I imagine having your life on the line affects what you do quite a lot. Like all historical figures, not all black and white.
that's what they all claimed after the war, that they would've been shot if they'd complained.
almost certainly a lie. at least, some wehrmacht soldiers complained that they did not enjoy having to massacre villagers on the eastern front and would rather not do it. they were not shot. they were not demoted.
some commanders on the eastern front complained that their soldiers are constantly drunk to deal with having to massacre villagers. they were not shot. they were not demoted.
also, nobody forced von braun to build rockets for nazis. he chose quite deliberately to serve the death machine. fuck him and his self-serving lies.
We did this with all sorts of fucking Nazis. We were far too kind and should have hung a fuck of a lot more of them.
Same thing goes for the fucking slavers after their failed rebellion.
Would you like to have a guillotine as birthday present?
Killing Nazis and slavers is justice. The fact that Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis outlived Lincoln is a travesty.
Or we could try to be more civilized.
It's easy for someone who isn't a victim of a capital or war crime to say, that the death penalty should be ostracized.
That makes my respect for Robert Badinter even greater:
His father was captured in the 1943 Rue Sainte-Catherine Roundup and deported with other Jews to the Sobibor extermination camp, where he was murdered shortly thereafter.
...
Robert Badinter (French pronunciation: [ʁɔbɛʁ badɛ̃tɛʁ]; 30 March 1928 – 9 February 2024) was a French lawyer, politician, and author who enacted the abolition of the death penalty in France in 1981.
I know this is a polarising topic. So I don't expect you to agree with me on this. The other way around... same. So let's just look at it as exchange of point of views. You show me your heroes, I show you mine.
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Fitting since the US's treatment of native Americans is what inspired the nazis
Like taking in a student.
yeah, the soviet's problem with the nazis was that nazis wanted to kill them all and they were of the opinion that that would hurt.
the US's problem with the nazis was that they challenged anglo hegemony. not quite as big a difference of opinion. no wonder they rehabilitated the nazis.
It's "great" seeing people trying to defend these nazis in the comments
well, they only did an oopsie i joined the nazi party by accident and took part in genocide oops. it's not like they were commies or something really bad.
It's not just the scientists. Check out Erich von Manstein. NATO commanders routinely attended the birthdays of this Wehrmacht general, and behind the scenes he was the unofficial commander of the WestGerman military for years.
some of those nato commanders were former nazi colleagues of manstein, so this should not surprise anyone...
There was actually a song talking shit about von Braun. I'm not sure which year it was form
Wernher von Braun by Tom Lehrer 1965
Did those scientists have much choice about joining the Nazi party? And, once in the US, didn't some of them contribute significantly to the NASA space program? Why the hate then?
Some were party leaders...
Which ones?
If you would like to read more about this, here are some articles:
- https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2013/5/3/wernher-von-braun-historys-most-controversial-figure
- https://time.com/5627637/nasa-nazi-von-braun/
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/1433245
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Backfire_(World_War_II)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_relocated_to_the_US_via_the_Operation_Paperclip
- https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gzkgta/nazi_and_jewish_scientists_at_nasa/fthzz6r/
- https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DAYAAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false <- This one is particularly interesting.
It's controversial. A lot of old science comes from abhorrent backgrounds. Life consists of various shades of grey. A lot of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" happened during the following Cold War.
Possibly something to consider as well is that a) under virtually no circumstance would these people ever have to face trial, because rocket scientists are a valuable commodity, and b) the US/USSR were already nudging themselves into the Cold War before the Germans surrendered. If the USA didn't nab these scientists, the USSR certainly would have. I see it was mentioned in the reddit post you linked as well. Another thing to consider, is it would be much easier for the US to keep tabs on these people if they were brought to the US and employed in government jobs than if they went to the USSR, or Argentina like many other Nazi officials.
That last link talks about some particular unsavory ones who were later investigated by the US too. Nothing happened of course.
Yeah the Wikipedia article states that, but their sources don't check out. 'Any further documentation on this?
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Space shuttle crashes into London
NASA guy: woops, sorry, force of habit.
Wait til you see where the Gestapo went.
Hihi
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