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@~~Ivan~~Scooby, Ukraine didn't start this war, and Ukraine isn't the one continuing it. They have to fight or they'll lose their freedom and self-determination. Look again what happened in Bucha, where Russian forces had control.
Simply rolling over and letting Russia win won't save Ukrainian lives, it'll cost a lot more of them.
The only way this war ends is if Russia leaves, or loses. Any alternative goes against everything the USA and the west stand for.
It's not a sunk cost fallacy. We cannot let Russia run rampant over other sovereign nations. Make no mistake, there is 0 legitimate reason for them to be fighting Ukraine. Letting them do so sends the message to them that we are all talk no show, and also shows China the same thing.
However, we've lucked into a great situation. Ukraine fought back fiercely; the US can just proxy war Russia through money now. No cost of human life, we aren't exactly going balls to the wall in sending equipment either. The EU gets the same benefit.
Also, I don't know what you mean by the war is costing too many Ukrainian lives. RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE. It isn't on the US to stop donating to force the Ukrainians to roll over and accept it? In what world do you tell the citizens to just lie down and take it for their own good? That's the most asinine thing I've seen.
So if your country's neighbors decide to murder you and abduct your kids, what would you like the rest of the world to do?
So what’s your solution? Should the Ukrainians surrender and become a Russian vassal?
Yes. Dude literally said it's costing too many Ukrainian lives.
To defend their country from their aggressor. Guaranteed this dude is from lemmygrad...
I had hoped it would take a while for the copium huffing ruskies to arrive on this site, looks like they're already here.
They were on lemmy.ml from the start. Take a guess at what the "ml" stands for.
They literally used that domain because it's free, for fucks sake, could you quit with that conspiracy? The admins are openly Marxist-Leninists and we have an instance for us, there's no need to "uuhh, lookie how baddy the ml domain can you guess how bad are".
Your account was made 12 days ago. The original instances of this site were ostensibly left-leaning to the point you'd call them "copium huffing ruskies". The people you are probably having issues with have been here years. You're coming into an existing space and attempting to commandeer it.
The government of Russia is still committed to this war, and as long as this is the case the sanctions against Russia and the military support for Ukraine just continue.
The fascists should not win this fight.
More tanks are always good.
The sanctions are working. But in a sense of turning Russia into a bigger NK or Iran. They don't have inflation because they immediately restricted capital exchanges preventing any capital flight. They also increased their federal fund rate by a lot, which will prevent inflation but still hurt their economy.
Russia is suffering from ammunition shortages, which is why they are firing much less compared to the start of the war.
Ukraine made more progress in the last two weeks than Russia did in the last 6 months. It was always gonna be hard. Unlike with the Kharkiw counteroffensive Russia expects it and is dug in having built up defence in depth. It was always gonna be hard, specially in the early days. More like how the Kherson counteroffensive went which took over a month of heavy fighting to get going.
I'm not aware of Ukrainians just surrendering and refusing to fight. To me it looks like they are fighting quite effectively so far.
Lastly, if you are actually worried about the loss of Ukrainian live (which I doubt tbh) than maybe, just maybe you should instead support your Biden administration and encourage them to send more material so that Ukrainians can better defend themselves.
Now who's the tankie
Russia wil NEVER by a Iran or a North Korea, this is why precisely the sanctions failed horribly. With the size of Russia, they have a country that can almost autosustain itself, at least in the most basic of things, and they have infrastructure that was built by the Soviets, so they don't have a country with great resources but now way to extract them (like Venezuela with oil, for example). Besides this, the US having sanction half of the Global South at this point doesn't realise that we people from the third world are just going to give a fuck a start trading amongst us. Every step they give it's easier, if Russia didn't have an explicit reason to openly trade with Iran or North Korea, now they have. You're just isolating from the world and the only allies you'll be left off are a decaying Europe with no production and a decrepit fascist Empire, the US.
In April of 2022, people began to ask if Russia could run out of artillery shells. The arm-chair generals laughed, and said that Russia had enough shells stored up to keep this pace until December! Then October rolls around and the shelling decreases to a level just above their production.
At the start of the war, every day there would be long range missile barrages. Now they save up what they produce over the course of 2 to 3 weeks and shoot them all at once (which is a better tactic, overwhelm anti-air, too bad they aren't hitting anything of military significance).
At the start of the war, they were using brand new high tech tanks, and even having contests and parades using the old tanks. Now Soviet era tanks are on the front line. At the start of the war, when sanctions started, the Ruble went up! Now even Moscow is admitting a spending deficit. At the start of the war, Russian patriotically signed up to serve. Now Wagner can't even recruit prisoners with full pardons.
Ukraine has near-infinite weapons and finite people. Russia has near-infinite people and finite weapons. The looser of the conflict will be who runs out first: Russia's weapons or Ukraine's people.
Well, I mean, to produce a human takes 25 years, to produce a gun...
Ya, eventually we will have Zelensky as the last Ukrainian controlling a robotic army of terminators up against 10 million Russians with sharp sticks.
Just because you haven't been paying attention to developments doesn't mean things don't add up. You seem to be unaware that sanctions are only mildly effective, Iran and China and North Korea are helping Russia, Russia is losing ground and poised to lose all of their gains since this invasion and possibly even into the 2014-era holdings like Crimea, but they're also entirely committed to it and Crimea specifically is a peninsula that will be very hard to take from the outside.
Sunk cost fallacies don't apply when your side has achieved 80%+ of its objectives despite starting out in a situation where a full and immediate loss was expected on all sides. The sunk cost fallacy is actually on Putin's side: just because he had tanks occupying large parts of Ukraine doesn't mean that continuing to fight will ever result in substantial gains again. If anything he's poised to maim every soldier-aged man in his country for nothing.
Sunk cost fallacies don’t apply when your side has achieved 80%+ of its objectives
That's precisely how sunk cost fallacy works. You're using past results to justify continuing: it doesn't matter if you had been steadily winning or steadily losing, the sunk cost fallacy comes in to play when you say that your actions to continue or quit are based on that history of winning or losing. You're fallen in to the exact trap of sunk cost fallacy but think you have managed to avoid it.
Now I'd also agree that sunk cost fallacy could be applied to Putin, but it's simpler than you say. On both sides, identically, the idea that you must keep going because otherwise what you've already done will be wasted effort, is precisely where the fault lies. That is sunk cost fallacy.
I'm not saying that Ukraine must continue because they've invested so much into the fight that it would be awful to stop now. That's the core fallacy, that you owe it to all the past pain and effort to keep trying even if things are looking bad: just because you lost a million men getting here doesn't mean you won't suffer total defeat trying to get to the finish line.
What I am saying is that Ukraine would be foolish not to continue because they're in an incredibly strong position with a track record that defies all odds against a weak retreating struggling foe. Now, it's sure possible that Crimea is a hard target full of Russian loyalists ready to fight to the death, but it's also possible that it's full of Ukrainians who are tired of Russian rule and ready to go back to how things were. I can't know, I'm not there.
Don't quit while you're ahead is a very different thing from don't quit because you've given up so much to get this far.
Ok, that was not how I interpreted it, so thanks for clearing it up. I still disagree with it being justified, but I can't say it's logicaly inconsistent, now it's more about pragmatics and ethics.
What I am saying is that Ukraine would be foolish not to continue because they’re in an incredibly strong position with a track record that defies all odds against a weak retreating struggling foe.
I do understand the notion of continuing when you're ahead, but I think that's only justified if your goal is to "win". If your goal is to end the war, and thus to save human lives, it's still not an acceptable plan of action.
Now, it’s sure possible that Crimea is a hard target full of Russian loyalists ready to fight to the death, but it’s also possible that it’s full of Ukrainians who are tired of Russian rule and ready to go back to how things were. I can’t know, I’m not there.
I think this is rather disingenuous. The 2014 referendum was something like 95% of votes in favor of Russian control. Yes, that was some years ago now, and things can and likely have changed, but that is quite a large margin such that to propose that it has changed in the complete opposite favor would require some solid justification.
I really do feel like I'm talking either in circles or to the void, because my fundamental goal here is: preservation of human life. As such, the only stance I find acceptable is ending the war. I find it fallacious to assume that Ukranian surrender could somehow lead to more loss of life. Just because humans were killed for a "good cause" doesn't mean those deaths were justified. I also find it annoying when people imagine that my assertion that Ukraine's actions are leading to deaths somehow means I think that Russia's actions aren't also; I've not said as much, and the assumption seemingly just serves to attempt to discredit the rest of what I'm saying.
So do you think the most ethical thing would be to allow Zelinskyy to be assassinated and Putin take control of Ukraine in order that only one person is killed instead of many? Is forcible occupation by a murderous corrupt tyrant not worth fighting against? If I point a gun at you and say "sell me your house for $1 or I'll kill you" do you acquiesce in order to prevent bloodshed?
So do you think the most ethical thing would be to allow Zelinskyy to be assassinated and Putin take control of Ukraine in order that only one person is killed instead of many?
He can surrender without being assassinated; there doesn't even have to be one person killed here.
Is forcible occupation by a murderous corrupt tyrant not worth fighting against?
Humans killed in the name of a good cause are still humans who have been killed.
If I point a gun at you and say “sell me your house for $1 or I’ll kill you” do you acquiesce in order to prevent bloodshed?
Yes. This is the same instructions store clerks, bankers, nearly everyone receives and adheres to: if someone is threatening your life, nothing is worth so much that you should rather die than acquiesce.
Sunk cost fallacies don’t apply when your side has achieved 80%+ of its objectives
90% of gamblers stop playing when they're about to win.
Sunk cost fallacy implies that the West is supporting Ukraine for profit. They are supporting Ukraine because it’s the right thing to do.
"Sunk cost fallacy implies that the West is supporting Ukraine for profit."
No.
Who doesn't need more tanks? Seriously, who are you?