Can you not add a Zigbee extender?
Edit: Or just use the bottom over WiFi?
Edit 2: Or use this as an excuse to buy more Zigbee products to build up your mesh network until it reaches where you want to place the button
this post was submitted on 27 Jan 2024
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Are there longer range zigbee extenders? I would like to avoid having to find places for a bunch of smart plugs across the house to extend the signal.
Wouldn't wifi battery operated buttons need batteries replaced all the time, isn't that one of the reasons for something like zigbee, the low power usage?
With an extender, it's essentially a second coordinator. But it's worth mentioning that a good Zigbee network is full of routing devices, so your network should be pretty far reaching anyway.
If the button you want to set up is far away from everything else, then WiFi or Bluetooth are definitely worth considering, because it is better to change batteries more often than be forced to add a bunch of devices to get one to work.
Isn't the point of Matter that you can do this sort of thing? Have a separate zigbee network connection via a bridge that uses wifi? Is it worth using yet?
There's matter over WiFi and Matter over Thread, I've not heard of matter over Zigbee. The reason I mention it is because Matter is just how the things talk to each other, not how they talk to each other. Think like Spanish, over the Phone. Spanish being Matter. Your Sky Connect can already listen for via WiFi.
From all I've watched, Matter is still very rare and prone to dropouts.
My issue is that I have some devices near my skyconnect, and that works fine. But now I basically want a second zigbee network for the smart button and plug.
My understanding is that Matter solves this by allowing you to use a zigbee bridge. The bridge connects to zigbee to talk to the button/switch, and talks to home assistant over wifi (using the Matter protocol). That way you don't have to have the zigbee network continuous. I was watching part of Home Assistant's live steam the other day that explained it a little.
I guess it's still very early for Matter, so probably my best bet is to either extend the zigbee network or get a wifi button (or wait until Matter is more mature).
Thanks for the help 🙂
You can put a coordinator in relay mode and use that, the antenna would help with the range. Get one of those outlets with USB and a right-angle cable and it'll be nice and low profile too.
If it's in relay mode, does it only need power via USB or does it still need to be plugged into a server? I don't have any nearby devices to plug it into, I'd probably need to get some mishmash of USB charger and adapter to plug in the coordinator and power it, if it can't reach straight from my HA server all the way to where I want to put the button.
Yeah, it shouldn't need anything more than USB power, it's just another node in the mesh at that point. If you don't have one of those USB outlets just use a phone brick, that should be enough.
EDIT: See THIS for more info. While that's obviously written for Z2M some of it applies to other coordinators.
Sweet, I'll have a think of where I could put one. Any idea of range for ones that have an antenna?
The product page for the sonoff dongle says 40-50 meters line-of-sight but it'll depend on your walls and wifi interference.
Oh cool, thanks. None of the ones I looked at showed range info that I could see. It has to travel through a few walls, but I'm sure one will do the job with the right placement.
There’s a couple of ways you can do this.
- You can build out your Zigbee network with relays (anything mains powered usually works as a router) to reach the area.
- If the area is too far away (say in another building), you could setup a Zigbee to MQTT router nearby and route the messages via another network back to Home Assistant.
- or your could use WiFi devices if you have enough spare capacity on your network and are well within signal range.
I’ve so far not had much luck with Matter, so for me, that is an unnecessary complication to avoid. Trying to get Matter working, I mean.
In my case I would probably use either the first or second choice, depending, but your situation may be different. My WiFi already has too many devices on it.
If the area is too far away (say in another building), you could setup a Zigbee to MQTT router nearby and route the messages via another network back to Home Assistant.
Can you tell me more about this? Wifi is available in the area, which seems a better option than a chain of zigbee extenders.
Can I just get a zigbee to MQTT router and that bridges between a zigbee button and HA?
It sounds like you may be confusing how Zigbee works with how older WiFi works.
In WiFi you would have a single access point with a certain range. If you want to extend that range in a particular direction you would have to add a range extender, creating a chain or rope of range extenders.
Zigbee (and many modern WiFi APs) are more like a fishing net. The more relays you have the stronger your net is because if one relay goes down for whatever reason, another relay in range can pass along the message to where it need to go.
By the by, this is also how the internet works (oversimplified to the point of inaccuracy of course).
In building out a Zigbee network you do not want to create chains with a single path available for reliability reasons. It’s better saturate an area with Zigbee relays. The relays can be either bunched up or you can spread them out. The only limiting factor on the size (in sq meters) is the max number of devices of the protocol, which you are unlikely to hit, and the radio range of the individual relays. Each device (either a relay or end device) needs to be able to see at least one (but preferably more than one) relay.
At a high level (I don’t run one myself), A Zigbee to MQTT server is a way to create a second “net” that is completely separate from the your original Zigbee network. In a nutshell, you take a second Zigbee cordinator and attach it to a MQTT server which then passes the information back to your Home Assistant. This second network doesn’t benefit from the first and the first doesn’t benefit from the second. Though, because they operate on the same frequency spectrum, they can conflict just as 2.4Ghz WiFi and Zigbee can conflict.
Can I just get a zigbee to MQTT router and that bridges between a zigbee button and HA?
It’s more something that you build than something you get, but, practically speaking, there is nothing stopping you from doing so. Though it doesn’t usually make sense to do so from an effort or infrastructure prospective for a single end device. Though of course, there are always exceptions. At a minimum, you would need a network connected computer running the MQTT server and a second Zigbee coordinator. Search for zigbee2mqtt.
Thanks, I was definitely confused! It does sound like the effort to run a MQTT server isn't really worth it for one button. However, I don't really know a good way to build a good zigbee network. My house has in-build LED lights, I can't swap them for Hue bulbs or anything like that. The only other common extender I know of is smart plugs, and having a bunch of smart plugs all around the house that aren't actually used is just annoying.
I'm not sure the effort is worth it for this one button at the moment. Maybe I will wait until I've added other things naturally extending the zigbee network.
Building a good, reliable Zigbee network is dead simple. Just have a whole bunch of devices scattered around the area attached to your Zigbee network that can act as relays. The network will do the rest.
Here’s some products from my notes that should act as relays. This should give you an idea as to what you can use. In general, if it’s mains powered it will probably act as a relay, and if it is battery powered it probably won’t.
You might consider asking around for what products others use that can act as relays.
Light switch - https://inovelli.com/collections/inovelli-blue-series
Electrical Relay - https://a.co/d/eaIyhDA
Plugs - https://a.co/d/3BqdTAD
Light bulbs - https://a.co/d/9F4JfWG
Gateway/Zigbee Relay - https://a.co/d/eNHZfWc
It sounds simple in theory, but for the light switches and relays I'd need to get in an electrician, and I'm just not that invested yet. I don't have bulbs I can swap out, as my lights don't have bulbs. That leaves smart plugs and that last one you linked, the gateway.
Smart plugs are annoying. They are big and bulky, the plugs fall out of the wall easily when they get bumped by kids, and it's an annoying extra thing for anyone wanting to use that socket.
That last link you have looks interesting. It doesn't state what the range is, but the reviews have lots of comments about the great range. That might be an option. Any idea what kind of range it has? I need to make it about 10-15 metres and through 3 walls, so I suspect it's a bit of a stretch but it would still probably greatly reduce the number of devices I need in between.
Out of the box, the Sonoff adapter is setup to be used as a coordinator, like the SkyConnect. To run it as a relay you will need to reflash its firmware. Sonoff has firmware available for that and I’ve seen guides floating around on how to do so.
Hardware side, best I can give you is a solid maybe, and I couldn’t tell you how stable the connection would be. I do know that it has better signal stock than the Nabu’s SkyConnect.
If you stuck it in front of a broad wave guide you might be able to eak out a little more range without limiting its visibility to the sides too badly. Like how satellite dishes work. A tin can would be too focused for this application but a metal colander or a foil lined dinner plate might work. Both the coordinator and the devices you are wanting to connect would have to be within “sight” of the Sonoff’s signal though.
Alternatively, and I don’t know if the parts exist to do this, you could split the single antenna off to 2 antennas, like CB antennas on heavy trucks here in the States. I don’t remotely understand how it works, but if it’s setup correctly, it would increase range to the “front“ and “back” while significantly reducing range to the sides.
I probably won't go the tinfoil route, I'd prefer to keep it inconspicuous. Using it as a relay may do the trick, depending on range. I'll think about what my plans are for future devices, as I don't have many right now (hence not having a big zigbee network).
Using Z2M doesn't really sound like it'd be ideal for your use case. For most people (myself included) it's to seperate your zigbee network from home assistant so if HASS goes down you don't lose control of your lights too.
Thanks, I agree, on learning more about it, it doesn't seem like the best solution.
have a look at Shelley smart devices. They have a wifi button that’s fully compatible with Home Assistant. Not the cheapest in the world but the quality is excellent. No Zigbee needed.
Thanks, someone else mentioned these and it seems like the best option so far.
The bit of info missing here is that ZigBee is a meshing network, as said most (but not all) mains powered ZigBee devices are routers. That means any end devices will connect to a router if it's closer and the router will relay the message back, that could be directe or via another router.
To fix your issue, some well placed ZigBee plugs could be all you need.
There aren't really any nice places to put the smart plugs. They are bulky and make it annoying for anyone trying to use that socket (or the one next to it), and ones in the open get knocked out by kids running past. Plus the ones I have don't have great range, a few metres (10ft or so) at best before they start getting dodgy. My skyconnect is unfortunately in one corner of the house where the raspberry pi and router are, and i want the button in a spot on the opposite side of the house. If the smart plugs do 3 metres each then I'd probably need 4 or 5 of them since the sockets aren't placed in a straight line between the two points, and it needs to go through 3 or 4 walls depending on placement. Hence why I was hoping for some way of jumping across the house using wifi.
In that case, I would recommend a shelly button -> https://www.shelly.com/en/products/shop/shelly-button-1-white as its WiFi and the Shelly firmware has all the things you need, I have a few Shelly things and they are rock solid
Ooh, that looks like what I need! Looks like it's rechargeable and has a decent battery life, works on wifi, and works with home assistant. Looks perfect, thanks!