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‘It will be the end of democracy’: Bernie Sanders on what happens if Trump wins – and how to stop him
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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politics
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Is there a real plan to shore up our "democracy" if the Democrats win this election? What is Biden going to do next term that he didn't do this term?
I feel like people are so fixated on Trump that they can't see past him. Trump is a giant, clown-shaped piece of shit-- absolutely. How does the opposing party fail at politics so hard that someone like Trump ever even had a shot?
Well yeah, because if he wins there won't be anything past him for much of the country.
But what can you really do? Not voting is beneficial to the open christo fascists, and the only person who has any real world shot at winning an election, for some mind melting reason Joe Biden. The same Joe Biden, who despite his kinda actually not terrible first term, is currently funding a genocide as the wold watches. It's a shit choice, but this problem isnt going to be fixed this cycle. It's like punching the clock.
Biden isn't the only one who could win, and seems to be worse off than a generic dem in swing States, by a long shot. They're choosing the candidate again, like they did with Hillary, from the ranks of the least popular people in the US. They're shooting themselves and blaming the left and Muslims in MI already.
I agree with you completely. I think the DNC is going to do what they want, and it will take time and deliberate action to change them. This cycle is going to be a Trump/Biden election. I don't see a way around it. Here's to 2026 and 2028 for making progress with elections. In the meantime we still have to donate and support with our time.
I'll be volunteering for Biden, because that's the best cause I believe I can support during this election. Doesn't mean I'm super pumped on him being the candidate.
Not give into cynicism and participate in the democratic process? Democracy isn't something that you can set and forget, it requires constant attention and participation or it breaks. We are where we're at because the GOP and big corporations have been carefully engineering widespread burnout in a large percentage of the working class population.
Oh for sure. I'm just saying the DNC is going to put up Biden, no matter what, so that's our choice this round. Action can be taken for 2028, but be real... They're not going to change horses.
OK? What if Biden wins, is my question. Is the Democrat value-proposition nothing more than "periodic intervals of slightly slower slide into total fascism"?
In what way have the Democrats advocated for sliding into fascism? They're status quo politicians, not wannabe dictators like some other orange person.
Intervals of "status quo" between fascist administrations is slow-walking into full fascism.
So, what's your suggestion then?
Fuck man, I've got a lot I guess. Like the kind of shit the Repubs do, but the Dems claim powerlessness to do. Trump has shown that the rule of law only matters if there is some consequence to breaking it. So break the law. Wield the power. Especially if you genuinely feel like this will be the last ever election. Fucking declare an emergency, arrest Trump and everyone else involved in J6. Send the military to reassert power over the national border in Texas. Break up media monopolies, and nationalize telecoms. Why the fuck would you risk losing an election to a criminal gang who want to end democracy?
All those possibilities pretty much went out the window when the Democrats nominated Biden. Even if Biden was as left as we would like him to be, he is a technocrat who sees the norms as vital to maintaining the legitimacy of government.
I don't even necessarily disagree that maintaining legitimacy is vital, but I'd put representing the people over donors a notch higher than maintaining norms.
I don't actually think they were ever possibilities. Even if Bernie had won, his own party would have trampled over the repubs in order to impeach him first lol.
I don't think so. The more people actually hear Bernie speak, the more they like him. He wouldn't be hiding from the public like Biden, he would be leading rallies on the Whitehouse lawn. If Bernie had access to the bully pulpit, impeaching him would be political suicide.
It's a nice thought, at least :)
Your suggestions are very tempting, I must say. We don't want to sleepwalk into fascism. It could be 1930s Germany all over again.
Trump and many of his gang were arrested already, though, and are facing trial. So far, the verdicts have shown that the justice system is still somewhat functional. I don't think it makes sense to flip the table as long as the justice system continues to hold Trump and his ilk accountable. Taking it to the next level and declaring an emergency would accomplish what, exactly? He has already been charged, so would the point of the emergency declaration be to skip the trial phase and go straight to hanging? Essentially it means outlawing Trumpism, which means purging the GOP, which means civil war. No one wants civil war as long as there is a chance to beat Trump constitutionally.
We had a situation in Canada in the 90s where our second largest province had a very serious vote on whether to separate from Canada. It would have literally ended the country as we know it. It was certainly tempting to arrest the leaders for treason to save the country. However, that would certainly have led to either a civil war or the Quebecois equivalent of the IRA in Canada. So, we persevered through the vote and the remainers won by about 1%, as I recall. We saved the country by the skin of our teeth, but through legitimate democratic means, and so the result was respected.
Yeah, purge them. As absolutely awful as a civil war would be, I say that it is preferable to risk it now than cordially handing over the reins of power to these clowns from hell. For one, civil war is by no means guaranteed. For all our big talk, most Americans will go along with 'the program', whether it's purges of fascists or purges of minorities. I'm afraid we have to choose one, and I much prefer the former.
I wish I could confidently disagree with you, but I can't.
The supreme Court is slow-rolling determining whether or not a president is liable for criminal activity in office until after the election. If they determine now, then either trump gets held accountable, or Biden has immunity from crimes in office, and can plainly jail or order a hit on trump and a good chunk of Congress.
Obviously though, the president is not immune from the consequences of crimes committed while in the office.
I just don't understand how you can believe that the supreme court can't or won't just ignore precedent.
A this point, I think Judge Judy has more integrity than the SC. They are gonna do what they were put there to do, give cover for republicans to undermine human rights.
I agree that it's frustrating that Democrats use shitty Republicans as an excuse to be just a tiny bit less shitty. However, it's getting really annoying that you can't criticize Trump without someone chiming in with "whadabout Biden?!" and you can't criticize Biden without getting a "whadabout Trump?!"
They're both fucking awful. It's a waste of time criticizing Trump because everybody knows who he is, and the people that like him don't give a fuck what he does. They aren't listening to your criticism. I'm don't think Dem leadership really wants to actually help working class people, but they definitely don't have much reason to start when people keep voting for the most "conservative" ones out of fear from the monsters which have mysteriously found a way to represent the other half of voters.
As far as Democrats go, Biden is amazing. He's supported Israel no more than Obama or Clinton did. He's forgiven tens of billions in oppressive student loans. He enacted a funding bill that will finally establish a HSR network in parts of America. He rolled back disastrous Trump era policies on immigration. He fixed Trump's disastrous COVID response. He re-established relations among NATO countries and was paramount in alerting the world that Russia was about to invade Ukraine when we all knew Trump was trying to weaken their military with his quid pro quo scheme.
In your opinion, how has Biden failed America?
To add to this. Biden has passed significant investments in growing manufacturing jobs in the US the results we won't really see for years. Planting a tree that he will never enjoy the shade of. He has approved renewable energy projects and initiated much needed improvements to energy transmission so more renewable energy can be in the grid when they are built. Biden has done a lot to advance our infrastructure.
Cricket cricket
....
Blyat
Obama didn't even openly support gay marriage. I get that as the first black president he didn't want to give the GOP anything to call "radical", but Biden is doing so much progressives have been asking for in the past 30 years, it's very hard for me to not be excited by that.
You know they don't . Their strategy was, is, and will continue to be: "The other side is worse".
Yep, and it is a shit strategy.
The more he loses the less likely he'll be to win, plus he's old as hell and not aging gracefully. Rebuking Trumpism is shoring up democracy.
Didn't we rebuke Trumpism last election? I'm asking why the fuck is Trumpism alternating as the most popular political position for the American electorate. This is an indictment of the political acumen of the Democratic party.
We did but facism will never go away. Before they slunk away but now fascists can connect with each other online. Instead of it being a few people that happen to meet up and connect now they can seek each other out. It's the same reason that racism has made such a dramatic resurgence. It will literally require eternal vigilance.
Is this how it is in all countries? An eternal choice between "whole fascism" and "skim fascism"?
It's further ahead in the US but coming elsewhere. Even in parliamentary countries fascism is coming back although since they are not first past the post not as pronounced. As long as the internet is around and there's no repurcissions for belonging to those groups they will be around.
I am aware. It's a failure of liberal democracy that fascists are allowed any political quarter.
Just ask about DC statehood and the Dems' inability to enfranchise over a million US citizens.
As soon as you scratch this problem, you discover how shallow and unserious the party is in "protecting democracy".
I agree, I'm just trying to get others to see how little "resistance" the Dems pose to the more naked fascism of the Repubs.
I think the case of DC Statehood is an obvious example. Whether we're talking about Kennedy, Clinton, or Obama, we're talking about a party that's deliberately disenfranchised over a million people on their watch.
I don't think there really can be a plan. Like what would you want Biden to do to shore up democracy?
One of the inescapable, fundamental, bedrock concepts of democracy is that people will not vote for a corrupt, criminal, authoritarian, self serving demagogue.
If a society can't achieve that basic state then they can not be a democracy.
Honestly, I suspect that the best thing Biden can do is to "grey rock" the American people and hope that Trump self combusts, which seems to be what's happening.
That said, that's just the best Biden can do. The dems need an actual leader that can inspire the american people to see a better version of themselves.
Did you mean to have the word "not" in your second paragraph? Because people absolutely vote for leaders like that all the time lol.
Oh I think I see. I agree that we're not a real democracy.
Because Trump is great for me fundraising and keeping party bigwigs at the trough
Sometimes in life there is such a thing that is called: "Maybe there is no Good Vs. Bad just assholes all around". Good luck with that