this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2023
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Thank you for the thorough response. I'll definitely give Spout Lore a try to begin with. I've been a little curious about Dungeon World as a replacement for 5e. Combat drags on in my games and we've got a limited time to play week to week so I was thinking it might be snappier to play and help us focus on the story. I know very little about PbtA though so maybe that isn't valid.
One of my players gifted me the Avatar Starter set so I was leaning toward running through that. Would you have any advice to help the transitions to and from combat work better?
I picked up Glitter Hearts a while ago because one of my players is wild about Magical Girls and there wasn't much out there I could find aside from it at the time. Have you looked into Girl By Moonlight at all? I haven't played anything Forged in the Dark but I know that the system is well-regarded. I'll give Hearts of Harmony a look too.
Are there any particular PbtA games that you would say take good advantage of the system? I was hoping to use this game as a jumping off point to explore other games and genres in the future if this went well. There's a remarkable number of games that use the system from what I can tell.
PbtA’s “core” isn’t its mechanics, but its principles (though some might disagree). Some of these core principles are:
===== Dungeon World =====
Dungeon World is a great game. Though it is a little of a mixed bag if people like it or not. I would say it has its flaws, but I would still enjoy playing it as is. Though, I do mostly play a hacked (house ruled) version of it.
The “trap” with Dungeon World though, is that people who are coming from DnD might fall back on old habits due to DW sharing genre and feel with DnD. And DW, or any PbtA, does not play well when people have that mentality.
These articles explain pretty well how DW is meant to flow. And that flow should be universal for any PbtA you try out (Glitter Hearts, BitD, MotW, etc.).
If you really want to break away from the DnD mentality, there is this neat article about creating the story as you play with the players (The Strandberg Recipe)
Basically the GM comes to the table with nothing more than an idea and some loaded questions. Three core questions should establish:
What the players answer becomes truths and the premise of the starting adventure.
===== Avatar Legends =====
Regrettable, as the rules are, I don’t have any advice. Normally a PbtA game uses the same rules/principles. It doesn’t have extra sub systems to keep track of. But Avatars combat does.
I have some ideas on how to house rule it to flow more naturally, but never gotten gone into putting it on paper. But I will say that if you have the interest and passion, I don't think the rules would be a hindrance.
===== Girl By Moonlight =====
I haven't looked at Girl By Moonlight that much, but it does look neat. But unfortunately, Blades in the Dark (BitD) and games based on it, have felt rather mechanically heavy for me. I must admit that I haven't tried one. Only read the books. So take my words on that part with a grain of salt.
But on paper when I compare BitD to other PbtA games, there are many more bits and pieces to keep track off. Almost like a mix of DND and PbtA.
===== Favorit System =====
I think Monster of the Week is a good representation of the principles of a PbtA. It is a action-horror game inspired by Buffy: the vampire slayer, x-files, M.I.B. And other similar series/movies. It has some very good sections describing how these games usually flow and how the GM and players are part of telling the story rather than the GM being the one doing all the work.
It being my favorit, might also be colored by the fact that during a very tough GM burnout on DnD, it helped me find the joy and passion for TTRPGs again.
Thanks for the thorough response. What hack do you use for Dungeon World? I've heard of things like World of Dungeons or Stonetop, but I didn't know enough about the core system to have looked into it. I'll read through the resources you listed. I think understanding the flow of any PbtA will just help me wrap my brain around the game before I run what will probably be Avatar to start.
It's interesting to hear you talk about some of the principles of PbtA being things like treating the game as a conversation and making rolls contribute to the narrative by not making them binary pass/fail states. I've heard a lot of advice to do things like that for DnD, especially in OSR circles. I feel like I've heard some strong reactions against stuff PbtA from similar circles though. Wonder what the disconnect there is.
That's the first time I've heard someone call Forged in the Dark mechanically heavy. Though whenever I've talked about it its' been in comparison to DnD. So maybe it's less complex in that context. I haven't read any Forged games yet so I'd trust your opinion over mine.
Monster of the Week is definitely on my list of games to try. I'll have to see about running it around Halloween. If it brought you back to the hobby, it has to be something special.
===== Dungeon World =====
The one I use is one I made myself, Mixed Adventures. It uses aspects from other hacks that I really liked but felt there was things missing. The most unique thing about my hack, is that the wizard and cleric don't have a spell list. But use a freeform kind of magic limited by schools or the deity's domains.
But if you give Dungeon World a try, I think you should try a "hackless" game first. The game is still decent and it will give you can better feel to of if you think it needs tweaking.
And you are correct. Avatar still uses the same flow as other PbtA games. So any experience with other games would give you valuable experience to run it as well :)
===== Principles =====
My take on this, is that the biggest difference between DnD and PbtA, is that DnD fixates a lot on balance and encourages a player vs GM mentality. Like encounter planing is so important, players rolls against the GM, the GM has to come up with twists for characters, etc.
That is a lot of work for one single person. And it has been like this for many years. I can imagine to some people, it might feel like being told to try and drive blindfolded. And trust your passengers to tell you were to go.
I have tried to pitched the open PbtA concept to a primary DnD GM a couple times, and one of them just looked at me horrified and asked: "What about my story? My plans?". Or one complained that it didn't seem fair that the players could decide the outcome of the dice .
But so far, from my own experience, I have never been more relaxed during my games. The openess and inclusivity of the players have lead to some amazing twists and turns in stories. Twists I didn't even come up with. So less work for me AND I could actually be surprised by the story.. Kinda like a player :D
===== FitD =====
It is also my own take, and as I said, I havn't actually tried a game yet. But when I compared it to DnD, FitD is not heavy at all. It is only when I compare it to most other PbtA games. But when I read the books, they still feel like solid games with some good explanations of the games flow.
Not sure if you have any FitD books, but there is one called Wicked Ones which has a free version of it.