this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2023
758 points (99.0% liked)
Technology
59559 readers
3209 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
This 1 fucking guy ruined a whole generation of gaming with his greedy dumb fuck business ideas.
Ftfy
To be fair he probably didn't come up with any ideas. Just approved the worst ones that were presented to him.
That's not the problem. The problem is him not doing anything about all the toxic culture and sexual assault in his company, causing the best employees to leave.
Who would win?
Dude has ruined multiple generations
It would be ruined if people didn't buy the stuff, but they do, so it's a success.
How? Did he force people to buy and subscribe and endorse something?
No. Idiots bought in, sucking balls purchase after purchase.
Edit: gamers who spent tendie money are mad
They trick people into buying in. The majority of people buyi g these games are extremely susceptible to the tactics they use to get you to buy their games and when you buy thwm they have more tricks to keep you locked in. The people falling for it arent idiots. They just fall for this stuff a bit easier. Or they havent been shown how it works so they dont know what to look out for.
Things like fomo and gambling mechanics as well as clever pricing tricks are just aome examples. Tbere are conferences and lectures held by industry people for lther industry people where that talk about consumers like they are cattle or other livestock and how we can be manipulated if certain tactics are followed. Games are more like "storefronts" to them. In fact thats literally how the fortnite developers referto fortnite, a storefront. With a game attached.
So, no, bobby didnt force anyone to buy his games, he didnt point a gun at anyones head (well actually we dont know that and i think there was a rumour aomewhere of something like this, couls be wrong tho) but he did remove all choice and boil everything down to a basic game with an inflated shop which fans of activision and later blizzard games fell for, for far too long. CoD was one of the most popular games in the world and fans of the game took some time to realise that the same game was being re released with a new skin for years.
Bobby took away that choice by not releasing other games, he just preyed on the susceptable and knew exactly what he was doing.
So please dont pretend that, for all those people, simply not buying the games or in game purchases was "simple" for the majority of people and that in a round about way, people weren't forced into buying into it. It just shows a lack of understanding and research into the subject.
There are limits to this argument ... at some point buying a shitty game is on gamers and they need to shop around for something else.
There aren't that many tricks prepurchase of a whole new game publishers can use. The big one is non-refundable preorders and at this point I'd hope people have learned their lesson on that (I still do it for, e.g. Bungie, but I don't trust many studios to that degree).
If you've got a refundable pre-order or you bought it post release and the game gets overwhelming negative reviews and you're personally dissatisfied with your purchase, keeping the game is on you and presumably your friends that also did so. There's plenty of other stuff out there to play, especially in the shooter space.
Doesn't this argument assume that all gamers are equal?
Remember that gamers range across all ages, genders, and preferences of genre. There are vast quantities of gamers that will buy whatever is going to be popular at any given point, there a purists who require nothing but quality. There are nostalgists who crave what gaming once was.
Buying habits are mostly dictated by the sorts of factors
Saying rhat gamers need to vote with their wallet, or something to that effect as you have, doesn't consider the fact that not every gamer is in it for the same reasons and capitalism will always cater for what is popular first and foremost. So if you aren't someone who is happy to play fortnite or cod for the rest of your life without longing for change then you are likely part of a minorty. A subset of gamers who want things to get better even though that is very unlikely to happen.
This argument acknowledges that we got it wrong when we started putting up "warning jumping off this cliff will hurt" signs.
If someone buys a bad game and they're happy with it, then it's fine, it's not a bad game to them. If someone buys a bad game, they don't like it, and they keep it, that's on them.
There are so many ways to spend money here and so much competition. If someone doesn't like the game then they just shouldn't buy it, one shouldn't blame Activision for making a game one doesn't like and saying "they tricking me."
Activision is not going to hit their numbers solely on people who are clinically lacking impulse control. Activision is going to hit their numbers on apathetic people that blame Activision for the poor purchase they decided to buy anyways.
This isn't "the grocery store gives plastic bags and it's on the consumer to recycle them, so therefore it's consumers fault that plastic bags are littered." This isn't "the only option in town is unhealthy food so that's why I eat poorly." This is an expensive game, the primary product, something that exists purely to entertain that nobody needs to buy. Truly if ever there was a case, this is the case where consumers needing to stop paying for junk they don't want (or heck what do I know, maybe they do want it).
Like i said. It's a varied market, but the companies will always follow the money.
You can deny the landscape of games we have that are made solely for the purposes of making ridiculous amounts of money from minimal effort all you want, but this is the marlet we have these days.
The fact that "gatcha games" are even a thing should be all the proof you need. You know about Diablo immortal and Diablo 4 dont you? And overwatch 2? And destiny 2? Apex? Fortnite? Fifa? Cs:go? And all those mobile games? The ones that make billions from microtransactions?
I feel like tour argument comes from a lack of research. You are standing in a storm and telling me it's not raining.
Theres plenty of resources out there that prove the game indistry is outright manipilating its customers and its all in the name of profit.
Theres a reason so many companies were scared of Baldurs gate 3. Somehow a game with a 6 uear dwvelopment cycle with around 400 employees was able to release one of the best games of the last decade. One that is smashing records and making crazy profit but it has no microtransactions, you buy the game and you plau the qhole game. Where activision wigh a studio of more than 1000 employees spent the same amount of time developing the addition of the number 2 to the previously popular overwatch. It took 6 years to draw a number 2. Because thats all thry did. They took away features of a widely popular game, slapped a 2 on it and told us all we should give them more money for the privilege.
But people pay for it. They buy into it. And its ot because its good. Its because most people dont hold the industry to the same standard as others. And they arent the ones who complain about it being a mess.
The ones who complain are the ones who see through the bullshit.
The ones who buy into it are the ones steering the ship.
You're telling me I haven't done enough research while not pushing anything more than your own opinion. Where's your research and sources if your opinion is more than that? If you have sources, great, otherwise you're just misleading people and being self indulgent about how your opinion is backed by research and mine is backed by a lack of information and understanding.
Who says there's anything wrong with cosmetic micro transactions. I pay for them, I know others that pay for them. It's fine, it gives me some cool looking stuff, and gives the game developer some extra cash. You're moving the goal post going from badly reviewing games to games with microtransactions.
There are plenty of resources out there that cite manipulation in terms of loot boxes and gambling. Destiny 2 doesn't do that, but it was in your list. Bungie is largely actually releasing content people appreciate and the game is overall very well received, as is CSGO in spite of its lootboxes.
Actually purchasing the base game of CoD, which has numerous issues, and is what we were originally talking about (at least I thought) also doesn't involve any of those shenanigans... But people keep doing it, and that's the biggest part I'm saying needs to change.
Just before i start this, i wanted to say, destiny 2 presents itself as a free game but as a new player in 2023 it costs over £120 if i want to catch up to everyone else just for the story content. Some might call that good value as there is alot of content in the game, except other than new powers which the expansions offer there is little to be gained by playing any expansion before the most recent as the gear you get will be useless once you hit the current expansion. Not to mention all the vaulted content that you will never get to play. The game is good. I dont dispute that. I played destinh 1 for years and 2 up to the first expansion, but its not a cheap game and on top of that the in game micro transaction give you easy access to all the best cosmetics which is quite manipulative at its core.
Types of mechanics used to trick money out of players
https://medium.com/@uthayakumarabiram/how-video-games-trick-you-into-spending-money-9c764d3225ad#:~:text=Microtransactions%20and%20In%2DApp%20Purchases,likely%20to%20make%20impulse%20purchases.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/14/video-games-gambling-big-spenders
https://youtu.be/7S-DGTBZU14?si=a8nb2BNO6VwBsiAG
https://youtu.be/uvjjOtxSKdQ?si=qlSRe9HcMDYWllrm
Diablo immortal: it costs 100k to max a character
https://www.eurogamer.net/it-costs-88000-to-fully-upgrade-your-character-in-diablo-immortal#:~:text=It%20costs%20%C2%A388%2C000%20(%24,a%20character%20in%20Diablo%20Immortal.&text=Players%20in%20Diablo%20Immortal%20have,equipment%20level%2C%20and%20Legendary%20Gems.
Diablo immortal it actually costs 500k - 1mil to max a character
https://gamerant.com/diablo-immortal-requires-500000-dollars-max-character/
Will that do for now or should i go further?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/7S-DGTBZU14?si=a8nb2BNO6VwBsiAG
https://piped.video/uvjjOtxSKdQ?si=qlSRe9HcMDYWllrm
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That's not true at all, there are plenty of old guns and pieces of gear from previous expansions that are still great guns.
Not to mention it's a game... Playing the campaign itself, learning the story, etc, is something to be gained.
And you're not paying for that... Everything that was vaulted is no longer charged for or charged for at a significantly reduced price (e.g. the Foresaken pack for exotics). The prices on old content (even the sticker price) also drops over time.
No it's not a cheap game. Yes it's free to play, and then you need content expansions to really unlock the whole game. Destiny is free to play in the old school "free to play" sense. It's free to access some content and do some stuff with your friends then you either buy expansions (the route Destiny and WoW went) or you pay a subscription (the way RuneScape) went. These are very old models and they're not scummy in the slightest. They're the moral equivalent of a free trial.
We literally just brought someone in, unfortunately the best way to do it is to wait for a sale. It's ~$20 for the majority of the old content (legacy 2023), ~$15 for bonus content (armoury collection -- what's left of foresaken and the 30th anniversary celebration DLC), ~ $40 for the current expansion and season pass (lightfall + annual pass), and I think a fixed $10 for the 2022 dungeon key.
That's $85 for the better part of ~4 years of game content/development and ~4 more months of yet to be released paid and free content.
Then yes, $100 for next year (which if it was a subscription would be <$10/mo). To put that in perspective, if bowling was your hobby, it would be significantly more expensive. We're all adults and can afford it... No harm is being done and it's all in all a good deal for the hundreds of hours we've spent in the game.
Cosmetic micro transactions where you know exactly what you're getting are again not a problem.
I didn't watch the videos (I don't even watch long videos friends send me half the time) but I skimmed the articles. The first is just some person's blog not exactly "research worthy." It's also not talking about what I've been talking about (i.e., if you just bought a $70 game you didn't like, you haven't been tricked, just refund the thing and/or don't buy it).
The second is much more credible as a source, but they're talking about loot boxes and gambling mechanics... And yes, those are a problem 100% (especially in mobile gaming, but also definitely Relevant in things like CSGO and as you mention Diablo, and also these days, RuneScape 3) but they have nothing to do with Bungie/Destiny 2 and they have nothing to do with people buying the Call of Duty base game despite its numerous issues and horrible reviews ... and then also not refunding it ... and/or buying it again next year.
I paid £60 for baldurs gate 3. I dont have to subscribe to anything.
You spent 5 or 6 paragraphs telling me about how a free game is not free, but also, it is free even though it was one game of many that i mentioned as an example.
I get itm you like destiny. So do i. It's great. But it's expensive, and you can't deny that. It's a slightly different model to most modern games, but that doesn't mean it's not predatory. It's just a different kind of predatory. One that gives all its players stockholm syndrome.
Those resources were all i could find in the moment. I sort of rushed a bit. If i wanted to write a novel about it, i would spend more time citing resources. I lived through 95% of the evolution of video games. I've watched them turn from a fun pastime to a toxic time and money sink. I've grown tired of the shit they pedal, that they can't afford to make these games if they dont make literal billions in sales. Which is utter shit. Absolute bollocks. Verifiably false and an outright lie. The proof is in plain sight. It's not even hiding.
Go look for the evidence yourself. Humour me if you dont believe me. If you dont find what im saying is true, then therea no harm in looking.
Its late for me right now and ive just read this. I dont have the sources ready to go. Ill reply tomorrow night once ive had time to collect them. I dont k ow why you thought i would have these ready to go? Plus tbh, you dont need me to link them. Just look it up. Watch some youtube videos which often have collated their sources in the descriptions. Read any articles about it. Do a cursory google search. Its not hard.
But yeah, if not. Then wait for me to have the time and ill post them tomorrow.
If people are addicted, they need help.
Most of these games are made for adults. So if children agree addicted to them, then the parents are responsible for the habits/ purchases.
If adults are addicted, they should seek help.
I don't blame beer companies for making beer, and people being addicted to that. I blame mental illness, and to a secondary degree, poor responsibility.
Life is tough but responsibility isn't dead. That doesn't mean there isn't space for mental illness, but it must be acknowledged. Game companies aren't evil.
Point being: if you act like cattle, don't complain.
The biggest problem this 'buyer beware' stance is that issues with alcoholism and driving after drinking are well known and well communicated. But the predatory practices in the gaming world are not well known or communicated. People know pretty well nowadays that when they walk into a casino they're probably going to lose their money.
But do they know that when they sit down to relax and boot up their favorite game that it has been literally engineered to get them hooked and take their money? Probably not, it's really only talked about at all in niche gamer communities like this one.
Should they be allowed to have storefronts in games? We still have alcohol and casinos so why not? But shouldn't there be some work put in to make sure people understand what's at play here so they can make that responsible choice?
I don't act like cattle, so I'm gonna continue complaining 😃
I've never seen any other industry be bewildered by the idea of caveat emptor as much as gamers.
My favourite are the ones that act as if Steam allowing bad quality games on their store is a bad thing because it means they could spend their money on a bad game. The idea of "just don't buy it" is a mystery to them.
Agree. Like, it's not water or transport. Just don't engage.
I don't like some movie franchises, and that's fine, I just don't consume them
Agreed, don’t buy the battle pass, or better yet, don’t buy the game if all you’re going to do is complain.