this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
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Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.


French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.

Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.

Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.

The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.

The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.

The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.

If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.

He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.

Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.

Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.

“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.

But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.


‘Worst consequences’

Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.

He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.

“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.

An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.

The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.


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[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I was initially torn on this, but as long as it's for all religions, I support it.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread

Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there's only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.

Would you also support a policy that nobody named @some_guy should be allowed to talk, no matter who they are.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there's only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief

there are multiple such as Islam and Sikhism to give two examples. This law is just an example of religious persecution against religions that don't fit in with the French idea of which religions a French person should have

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago

Your right should have said there's multiple religions it was discriminating against just highlighting how it lines up with Frances history of Islamophobia.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there's only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.

One, this is not true. Two, this includes other symbols like pendants

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Presumably if a bunch of Mormons or Mennonites or whatever else set up in France and all their kids dressed the same way, the school would step in on that too. Maybe they wouldn't, but then the problem isn't the policy it's biased enforcement.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The first is a good argument. And I support breaking that law.

The second is a good argument in that I wasn't factoring the requirement (which I kinda don't care about because I reject religion, so I know that I'm wrong even though I reject religion, fuck religion). Were religion not so toxic, I would have more sympathy. In this case, I'm gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.

The third is just silly.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.

bruh-moment

can't believe you just said "facing persecution for your religious faith simply don't be a member of the religious minority being persecuted"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Being religious is a choice, not a birth defect

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not a choice when they indoctrinate kids in it, which all religions do.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

At which point it becomes child abuse. And the state should step in. Let's not forget that France also doesn't permit the display of any religious symbolism instate institutions including Christian. Either these kids are free to choose a different item of clothing, or they're being abused by their family. Simple.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Every kid of belivers is being rased in their faith, worldwide. It is religious indoctrination and frankly i agree that this is child abuse, but it's not illegal anywhere. People refraining from this and allowing the children to choose are very rare. And even then it might still not exactly be the choice, in basically all societies there is considerable peer and social pressure to conform to its values.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"Just assimilate to Christian culture, Muslims. I'm anti-religion of all kinds, btw."

You are too caught up in liberal abstraction to allow yourself to understand the material reality.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The kids aren't being made to attend church on Sunday. They're being made to be part of a secular society, one that takes its secularism more seriously than many other countries do.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Pure reactionary sophistry. They are not made to go to church, but they still get the Christian Sabbath off but not Muslim Jumu'ah (their equivalent, midday prayer) on Fridays. France is "secular" but it just so happens that the laws of its "secularism" cut in a direction that wildly favors Christianity.

You claim to be a communist, don't you? You should know this quote:

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.

-- Anatole France

As I said, liberal abstraction that obscures the deliberate material impact of the laws.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Christian Sabbath off but not Muslim Jumu’ah

hear me out: that just might be, really far stretch I know, but it just might be because the western weekend formed out of the Jewish Sabbath, which was adopted by Christianity. However it is not anymore the justification for having it. The only reason Saturday and Sunday are the weekend is because nobody bothered moving the date after the religious meaning was largely lost on the general population. Religion in Europe is in steep decline, unlike in certain other parts of the western world.

France has a population of ~40% Atheist/Agnostics. If you seriously think Christianity dictates the laws in France you are delusional.

[–] Jakeroxs 2 points 1 year ago

Lmao conflating Christian culture with Secularism, classic blunder

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wow. So literally saying they should just assimilate, so much for that whole "they have to respect our culture because we respect theirs"

Also yea the third point was stupid, it was to illustrate how dumb your argument was.

Bit then you just came out and admitted to being a bigot and leapfrogging my point.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I am bigoted against religion. I otherwise accept everyone for who they are. I have no shame in taking this stance.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

Yea bigots generally aren't shameful about their bigotry they just usually try to tap dance around the word bigot, good for you for being honest I guess.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What the fuck I thought Christopher Hitchens died

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Dawkins and Harris yet live, unfortunately

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

My North African grandfather lost a leg to untreated necrosis defending that gallic shithole from nazism, they can go assimilate his rotted leg