this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
626 points (94.2% liked)
World News
32376 readers
611 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
How many of those involve not giving in to the aggressor?
Is this one of these "pacifism is when I kick you and you don't defend yourself" bits?
the moral purity of ''not giving in to the aggressor" doesn't make anybody less dead.
It does: It dissuades the aggressor.
Germanic tribes, and this continues over to Ukraine culturally (because Rus), had the battle cry "better dead than slave". A village would fight down to the last woman, elderly, and child. Because even if the aggressor overcame them they'd be left with nothing but their own losses. Thus, they wouldn't even try.
If Russia is allowed to get away with this, Taiwan will be next. A gazillion of small-scale empires in unstable regions all around the world will say "well, seeing that noone cares our time to get away with it".
Millions if not billions of people more will be dead.
Holy shit mate, stop watching Marvel movies and get some perspective; this isn't the first time one nation has invaded another. The world didn't end when America invaded Iraq.
I'm sorry but this is definitely shit you only say when you're very far from the action. Would you want your grandpa drafted and sent into a minefield to "dissuade the aggressor"? Grandma and the children too apparently, better dead than governed by another neighboring authoritarian shithole?
I think I'd rather just flee with my family to a country right next door that has a nuclear deterrent and NATO membership. Literally why would "they need to all fight to the death instead" be your first thought? I can't imagine it coming from a position where you think Ukrainians are as human as you are.
So when are you going to Ukraine to sign up for the frontline?
You're definitely gonna do that right?
Ukraine has lost. They are not getting their separatist regions back.
Their choices are to keep fighting, which will not change this outcome, or negotiate an end to the war so they can stop dying and start rebuilding. Their negotiating position will only weaken as the war continues absent some one-in-a-million stroke of luck.
This isn't "I kick you and you don't defend yourself." It's "I kick you, you defend yourself, lose, and choose to either walk away or keep getting beaten up." And that's not even digging into the actual causes of the war, which are nowhere near as clear cut as Russia one day waking up and deciding to attack out of the blue.
Minsk I a treaty they've signed that was about greater autonomy for the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts like them being allowed to speak russian a treaty that was very quickly broken.
Minsk II a treaty that did the same thing which again was broken.
and these are the off ramps before the war during the war you had the peace talks when the russian army was outside of Kiev whose content is dubious because so far only the russians said what it was about
and more importantly every peace talk after that Ukraines position was a restoration of the 2014 borders aka they want Crimea back which sorry is just not reasonable, hell for a lot of those peace talks russia wasn't even invited it was a bunch of countries like Germany, UK and Ukraine but not you know the country currently participating in this war.
This is one of those bits where I say that a country isn't about some piece of land but the people in it which guess what the ukrainian government is feeding into gigantic blender.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT SOME IMAGINARY LINES.
If Cuba decided to 'restore its borders' aka if it attacked the US base on Guantanamo Bay and sacrificed hundreds of thousands of Cubans throwing them against the US army blender I would call for the Cuban people to rise up against its government because it doesn't care about its people and I hope you would too, if Mexico decided to take back California I'd have that same stance. It's called being anti-war, something I'm sure you'll now quote how "actually your stance isn't anti-war my which calls for sending billions of military equipment is actually anti-war"
My guess is that you don't know what war is like or have never interacted with anyone that had to flee a war, you really have two options here you can go outside and talk to any ukrainian woman that fled because of the war, tell them to their face that they are giving in to the aggressor when they say how angry they are at the ukrainian government because they don't know where their husband or their two brothers are. You know what I'll make it easier for you find any person in real life that has had to flee a conflict and how they feel about 'giving in to the aggressor'. Or if you feel you don't need to do that go join up the ukranian army do your part to fight the aggressor I mean it's only war right, you've seen some TikToks with war footage and some phonk music accompaning it, war is absolutely poggers I'm sure you'd have a blast fighting some russian orks.
...broken by the separatists. Also Russian was never outlawed.
It's unreasonable to not give in to a conqueror? It's that "Pacifism is when I kick you and you don't defend yourself" thing, again.
You may not. The people living in those areas (fled or not) do, though. They do care whether there's rule of law, whether they have a say in how things are run, whether there's a criminal installed at the top of things by the occupying force. After Ukraine got its independence many Tatars returned to Crimea that should tell you something.
Ukrainians, no matter the ethnicity, don't want to be ruled by Moscow. It's as simple as that. Before the war, some still had hopes that good relations with Moscow are possible, but not any more. Do you want to be ruled by Moscow? See neighbours disappear in torture cellars?
damn I was so sure this ukrainian woman I was talking to really wanted the war to end but she must not be a true blooded ukrainian women amiright? Again you are just some edgy person that doesn't get out enough and you channel that into playing up how much of a big powerful person you are by yelling "WAR WAR WAR NO ME WANT BLOOD WAR NOW BOMBS MINES BLOOD SKULLS WAR" it is good to see though that you will not go outside so there's that you don't seem like a pleasant person to be around.
Also this isn't a creative exercise you aren't supposed to just make up lies lol
Everyone wants the war to end. By the way of Russia losing it because Russia being allowed to win means even more war in the future: Peace on the agressor's terms is not peace, and thus cannot be the goal of any pacifist.
If the Kiev coup regime was concerned about aggression, they could have simply not done eight years of ethnic cleansing in the Donbas and ignored a ceasefire🤷♂️
Are there any OSCE election monitor results you want to back up your "coup regieme" claim?
Also, the breakaway Russian puppet states were the ones to break the ceasefires.
Google Operation Aerodynamic, i'm not gonna spoonfeed you information you'll just petulantly spit out to preserve your protofascist worldview.
the first 2 , they just involved West Ukraine giving in towards accepting 30 % of your citizens to have Human and Democratic rights as well .. (please read up on Minsk 1 & 2 )
Ah, the old myth about the poor disenfranchised Russian minority. Who, pray tell, might have an interest in propagating such narratives? A neighbouring belligerent empire, perhaps?
Ah, the old myth about the perfidious, untrustworthy minority with dual loyalties who are surely plotting with The Enemy. Who, pray tell, might have an interest in propagating such narratives?
How can it be hammered in to your skull that this is not a story book where good guys win by virtue of their righteousness?
This is geopolitics. An empire wants to conquer an outlying resource rich region it has not been able to bring under it's control. It has provoked a small outlying nation to act as a proxy to weaken it's enemy. Ukraine isn't making decisions. They're just ammunition in someone else's war and the best thing for them would be to mutiny against Kiev and end the slaughter. Status quo antebellum is not on the menu.