this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2023
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https://kbin.social/m/modernmisogyny
I ran across that magazine recently and every post is transphobic af. Does that fit within kbin.social's code of conduct?

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[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 year ago (3 children)

No, fascists (which TERFs are) should not be allowed to fester here.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This article is really not convincing.

like, fuck terfs, fuck the anti-trans movement, but the connection between the anti-trans movement and fascism is framed in this suuuuper abstract way that no meaningful definition of fascism would allow. It kind of just makes fascism sound like "statism."

There are plenty of terfs (again, fuck terfs) who are not calling for government action, but trying to exclude trans women from feminist spaces on non-governmental levels, arguing for a limiting social or academic definition of feminism or of a woman and holding exclusionary events. Fascism is an incorrect label for that behavior.

Furthermore, to call terfs fascists implies that they are generally for other things fascists are for, like a command economy, which I don't think is common.

And to be clear, there is an overlap between terfs and fascists, and an even bigger overlap between anti-trans people in general and fascists. We all know the Nazis fucked up a lot of good gender research, but they were never pretending to be feminists.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

... did you link to the wrong article by mistake? that article doesn't really have anything to do with fascism, except insofar as most fascists also happen to be racists.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I could link articles all day but I have better things to do than entertain (presumably) a cis guy while he plays devils advocate about the people who want my friends thrown in camps not being fascists.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

that's literally the first article you linked to. Do you have a point at all? You can link to articles all day, but only two of them, and only one that argues for your point at all, which I've already addressed?

I'm not advocating for terfs or fascists, they're both villains, but to say they're the same is like saying the KKK and the muslim brotherhood are the same. Just because they're both evil and there are some common threads between their ideas doesn't mean they're the same. I think we should learn how to talk about the terrible groups out there instead of just equating all of them and dancing around our own ignorance. I'm not advocating them, I'm advocating against them as strongly as I can, and you're promoting ignorance instead of responding to the one damn point I've made.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

that's literally the first article you linked to.

Yeah I thought maybe you would read it this time.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I read it, and responded to it. You've been ignoring my response because you don't have an answer to it. So again. The core argument that terfs are fascists is:

To that end, Butler does a good job of laying out that the anti-trans movement ultimately is about strengthening government oversight — restricting access to medical care and generally seeking to ban LGBTQ+ people from the public sphere, which fits pretty neatly into just about every standard definition of fascism. That includes gender critical feminists, the self-professed “leftist” equivalent of the more extreme right-wing fundamentalists.

Which, again:

  • Pretends the entire social-focused aspect of the anti-trans movement doesn't exist, when it obviously does, and there are obviously many, many terfs focused on non-governmental oppression. The article itself describes governmental forms of oppression, but this does nothing to imply that the anti-trans movement is actually all about focusing on government oppression
  • identifies an extremely superficial relationship between two positions as both being statist and therefore being the same. The police state is also about increasing government oversight. A command economy is about increasing government oversight. The founding of the CFPB was about increasing government oversight. Having courts is about increasing government oversight. These are not all forms of fascism.
  • fails to describe fascism at all. Fascism is a specific thing with a specific definition, it's not just the idea of having an active government. Fascism is a form of nationalism with a dictatorial government, a strong military focus, a hard command economy that exists to support the state and the military, expansionist policies, suppression of opposition to the government, denigration of the individual in favor of the collective in the form of the state... Now, the terf movement, overall, is doing some of those things, but the article doesn't reference any of them.
  • fails to establish that most terfs, or the core proponents of the terf movement, or terfs in general, are fascists, let alone that a terf is categorically a type of fascists.

If you have a point, then instead of linking to the same article again or linking article that isn't about fascism, please make your point.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why are you "Well, actually..."ing fascists? Who gains there?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

who gains from making up a new definition of fascism? why do you want people to be ignorant?

know thy enemy.

I'm not nitpicking here, I'm not being pedantic, your article didn't even vaguely touch on what fascism is. Maybe the underlying article did, but I'm having trouble imagining what the point is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Does it piss you off you spend all this effort flailing about defending fascists and I still tell you (correctly) you're wrong and spend a fraction of the effort?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

where the fuck do you see me defednding fascists?

does it piss you off that you don't have any response to anything I've actually said? does it piss you off to discover that this publication you like just published a point it didn't understand at all? does it piss you off to see a person argue that we should attack terfs for being terfs and fascists for being fascists and not just assume that all bad people are the same kind of bad person?

is that why you're afraid to read any of my comments?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Having no time for a jackass in a month old thread dredging up his lack of reading comprehension and pathological need to defend fascists from true accusations of being fascists is very much different than being afraid.

You are correct that I am not reading your replies at this point, nor is anyone else.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

stop saying that I'm defending fascists, asshole.

you didn't read any of my replies, and you kept accusing me of shit I'm not doing, because you are, in fact, not interested in defending your bullshit. Blaming me for that is sad.

also... I just found this thread today, how did that happen?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'll stop saying it when you stop doing it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why are you advocating for the KKK?

show me a place where I implied that Fascists might not be complete pieces of shit. Show me one place.

You admitted to not reading my comments, you're nothing but a troll. This is serious. Go fuck yourself.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You sure are upset about this group of fascists being fascists.

Why are you so cut up about arguing in a thread no one is reading?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I'm upset that you're promoting the Westboro Baptist Church!

I'm upset that decent people are being tricked into a stupid opinion about bad people. Just because fascists are evil and terfs are evil doesn't mean we should be making up confused bullshit about them, we should make coherent arguments and insult them for what they actually are. Making fun of terfs for being fascists is not effective because intelligent people will see that they're not fascists, and then not understand the actual issues with terfs. This is doubly problematic if your argument that terfs are fascists is as superficial and weak as the Them article you posted. You'll alienate people that absolutely want to be on our side.

Why are you so cut up about arguing in a thread you're not reading?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Are you still typing?

Still caught up on a group of fascists needing you to tell people they aren't fascists, huh?

How's that working out for you?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'll be here for as long as you keep defending Tucker Carlson.

I'm not doing this for the fascists. The fascists love it when people get confused about who they are.

I'm doing this for your benefit, and for the benefit of any other decent people reading. Decent people don't like being lied to, decent people don't benefit when you tell them that cake is a type of potato, decent people don't suddenly get smarter when you tell them that Rush Limbaugh is a Scientologist. Labels have meanings and degrading those meanings is not a progressive act.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That's how you spend your cis-ass time? Defending terfs from descriptions of fascism when they're fascist?

That would seem like a bad things to do for a group who doesn't need defending.

[–] goat 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

why are you using cis as a slur? that's so weird

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I am using it as a descriptor of an out group member sticking his nose in a oppressed in group's business. It is apt.

[–] goat 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I've been accurately called worse.

[–] goat 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You're asking me to provide motivation for others' actions—calling me things—which I cannot do.

[–] goat 1 points 10 months ago
[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I spend my cis-ass time helping progressives avoid ignorant people like you who are helping terfs and fascists recruit. I spend my cis-ass time attacking terfs and fascists.

the worst thing you can do to a terf is tell the truth. The worst thing you can do to a fascist is tell the truth. They have no defense against the truth. Their ideas are genuinely that bad.

But when you lie, they party in the streets—that's their whole recruitment model. They say "look, libtards call us fascists just because we don't believe (insert some strawman version of the lies terfs tell)," and they laugh about how many "moderate" votes you gained them in their swing states.

I hope my fellow progressives don't think your ignorance is the norm among progressives.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You sure are confident telling marginalized groups you aren't a part of how they should refer to their oppressors.

You are very smart.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why are you using the N word?

I'm not talking to a group, I'm talking to a dumbass.

As a Jew, I feel fairly entitled to talk about fascism, and fairly entitled to be upset when people say insert group of assholes are Fascists without any understanding whatsoever of any definition of Fascism beyond "government." I do, in fact, have a stake in how you lie about my oppressors.

But it's also perfectly reasonable for me to be upset when you lie about your oppressors and try to trick trans people and allies like me into believing your lies. Why are you so strongly opposed to the truth?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You haven't even addressed the Bureau Of Fasism Forensics Analysis report? Until you do that no one has anything to say to you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Keep trolling trans allies and drawing false equivalencies, that'll stop the terfs.

Why did you shoot JFK?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

no have no idea what fascists are and just use it as a scare word to attack people you disagree with - grow up.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

So you're saying Helen Joyce's claim transgender identity is a plot by Jewish billionaires is just her being a concerned citizen asking questions?

That's a strange side to be defending, friend who made their account yesterday.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m just pointing out that the „fascist“ label got thrown around by people like you so inflationary that it lost every meaning or sense, making you sound similar desperate as those you seek to oppose. What this does have to do with the age of my account here is beyond me, on the other hand I sense a hint of alt tech elitism that fits the picture just right.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"People like me"? You'll forgive if I don't follow.

And it has a meaning—that they are being fascists—which it maintains.

It's fascists' fault they're being fascists; not mine for correctly labeling it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People who claim that they are right because they say so will never cease to fascinate me.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You want me to explain why transphobia is bad and should be opposed?

No.

Fuck out of here.
I'm not explaining why antisemitism is bad either.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Funny how this escalated from you thinking that the socialpolitical movement of fascism has anything to do with a subtribe of modern, post–liberal 2nd wave feminists all the way to antisemitism - something, that wasn’t even remotely on the table. if you now manage to stir „racism“ into the mix, you can call it a day.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You don't read links do you?

I'm not the one who formed the alliance you deny exists.

TERFs have always been white supremacists.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

An, yes, „white supremacy“ counts as „racism“. You did well today, have cold one - bye! :)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

You're leaving my notifications?
Awesome!

Please don't go defending fascism in anyone else's. 🙂

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

I don't think @mishmashenjoyer implied that at all. Like, not even close. On any level.