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Trump to lift pause on 2,000-pound bomb supply to Israel, Walla News reports
(denvergazette.com)
this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2025
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At no point did Biden ever, once, tell Israel to continue killing Palestinians. The support was provided for defense from Iran, full stop.
October 25th, 2023: https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-criticizes-extremist-settlers-west-bank-2023-10-25/
August 1st, 2024:
https://www.jns.org/biden-reaffirms-support-for-israeli-self-defense-against-iran-in-call-with-netanyahu/
November 26th, 2024:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-says-israel-has-right-to-self-defense-if-hezbollah-or-anyone-else-breaks-deal/
What Israel chose to do with that support is on Israel, not Biden.
Removed again for misinformation and temp banned.
This is an awfully subjective political opinion to be moderating on.
It's not subjective. Biden's opinion on Israel is matter of fact stated and quoted multiple times.
Subjectively, I find it incredibly naive (especially for a President), but it's not the same as Biden dropping the bombs himself which is how the "buh buh gEnOcIdE!" folks are playing it.
In the end, we now have a President whose only opinion* is Israel didn't commit the genocide fast enough.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
“They’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.”
That's what a pro-genocide President looks like.
* That's unfair, he's also of the opinion that a ruined Gaza is a great beachfront development opportunity.
https://youtu.be/gSoT22pCBGM
I quoted the subjective opinion. "I just gave the murderer a gun, and told him to only use it for legitimate self-defense" isn't a situation where most people would consider the gun-giver to have no moral responsibility for a future killing. If you think it is, that's an unusual but valid opinion, but calling that an objective fact is not true.
That doesn't work as a matter of international law.
For example, we have had multiple instances where we provided civil aid to a country only to have it confiscated and misappropriated by a corrupt government, that doesn't mean we stop sending aid.
You're not the Hague and law is not morality. Taking the stance that a "plz don't use for genocide" note absolves the United States of responsibility is a subjective stance. You can carry on an argument for why you think that should be the case, but you shouldn't be moderating because someone does not hold your view.
And none of your examples apply in the least to sending weapons to Israel post invasion. They're using our weapons to do genocide, the same people are in power, and the weapons are being used out in the open as official acts by the government.
The fact of the matter is that Israel is (correctly) being blamed by the ICC, NOT America.
Not that it matters what the ICC says anyway, but that's an entirely different problem.
The real problem is Israel doesn't need our help exterminating Gazans, they never have. They didn't need our help starting the blockade back in the 90s, they didn't need our help killing people immediately following Oct. 7, and their snipers don't need our help killing kids today in violation of the cease fire.
https://lemmy.world/post/24563168
The notion that it would have all stopped except for Biden's aid is a child-like understanding of what's been happening over there and the knee-jerk lemmy reaction of "US bad".
This is a fine subjective argument you're making. You keep coming back to this with your opinion on responsibility and not addressing that this is your opinion on a subjective subject (how responsibility is divided between an actor and someone who has supported them). There's lots of interesting moral philosophy about the subject.
What it isn't is objective truth. No amount of arguing is going to change that. You might theoretically even change my opinion, but it's never going to become an objective truth that justifies moderating someone saying "Biden supported genocide" as misinformation.
Again, not subjective. The ICC has charged Israel, not the United States, not Biden.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/11/israel-opt-netanyahu-gallant-and-al-masri-must-face-justice-at-the-icc-for-charges-of-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity/
If the US were to blame for the Genocide, the ICC would have charged Biden right alongside Netanyahu just like they charged Putin over Ukraine, they did not.
But, like I say, it doesn't really matter as the ICC rulings have no enforcement. Would be nice!
JFC dude. The ICC is not the arbiter of people's legitimate moral philosophy and you are not a judge at the Hague. You can't export your moral (or moderation) judgement to the court system.
Philosophy doesn't enter into it, this is about legal liability and the facts are right behind what I'm telling you. Quoted, cited facts.
I'm not asking you to LIKE it. But you have to accept the reality that only a very small fringe believes Biden is to blame for this.
You have this so backwards it actually makes my head hurt.
It is a shame you are a moderator in this community given your strange sense of when appealing to an authority for truth is acceptable and when it isn't.
Like... sure the ICJ is necessary and great but who is to say they don't believe the US and Biden are directly complicit they just know saying the whole truth gives them zero chance of winning? That is a very simple but reasonable hypothetical and I made it to point out the massive blindspot in your understanding of the world.
Biden absolutely is as directly morally culpable as if he had dropped the bombs himself, you don't get to play games with escaping culpability when you get the job as president...
and just to be clear, fuck Trump
Again, morality and philosophy are subjective. Legally, which is objective, Biden is not responsible.
So we are only allowed to discuss responsibility in the context of a narrow legal definition... on a world news sub?
You are searching for a line between the black and white and you don't realize you are in a sea of different shades of grey.
The question over whether Biden is responsible is inherently subjective and even if it wasn't an authorities' conclusion that Biden is or isn't responsible for the Palestinian genocide is inherently subjective...and subject to interests that may influence and distort a picture of the truth.
Also, what would happen if the legal definition of responsibility was unethical and unjust and you knew it? Would you still moderate according to those rules even if they violated your core values?
The law is a record of political and human struggle, there is nothing about it that makes it somehow impervious to bias or corruption like (arguably) the study of pure math or logic is.
No, you can discuss anything you want, but you won't be allowed to assert blatant falsehoods as true.
Same goes when I remove the arguments about Ukranians being Nazis or how they were the real aggressors after Russia invaded them or how the Uyghur genocide is all made up by Western powers to make China look bad.
Bullshit gets removed, repeated, unrepentent bullshit gets a temp ban. Repeated temp bans get longer and longer until the bullshit is excised.
Ok fine, then moderate people for claiming the ICC believes Biden is responsible for the genocide.
That is a blatantly falsifiable statement.
If I say I believe Biden to be responsible beyond any reasonable doubt for being among the most crucial facilitators of the Palestinian Genocide that is not a blatant falsehood, plenty of evidence points to that being true and frankly so does a common sense understanding of how power relationships work in international politics.
You can't just dismiss voices like mine by calling it blatant disinformation and keep a shred of your intellectual integrity.
It is absolutely a blatant falsehood because Biden is on the public record over and over advocating a cease fire and a two-state solution.
You can't simultaneously advocate a two-state solution while also attempting to exterminate one of the states.
Biden believes both Palestine and Israel have a right to exist. That is NOT genocidal.
Israel believes they should have full control of Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Southern Lebanon and will kill anyone who tries to defy them.
Ok so now a politician stating something is true makes it true?
Are you listening to yourself?
As a matter of public policy, yes, it's 100% true and the fact that he got a cease fire done the last day of his administration proves that.
What an example to choose. I.C.C. Won’t Investigate China’s Detention of Muslims
From your article:
"Prosecutors in The Hague said on Monday that they would not, for the moment, investigate allegations that China had committed genocide and crimes against humanity regarding the Uighurs, a predominantly Muslim ethnic group, because the alleged crimes took place in China, which is not a party to the court."
They have no legal jurusdiction in China.
They don't have legal jurisdiction in the United States either!
No, they have jurisdiction in the State of Palestine, you know, where the crimes are happening.
https://asp.icc-cpi.int/states-parties/asian-states/Palestine
Which is how they charged Israel for the ongoing genocide, Israel isn't an ICC states party either, but you run around committing crimes in a states party, yeah, they do have jurisdiction.
Same for Ukraine and Russia.
https://asp.icc-cpi.int/states-parties/eastern-european-states/ukraine - Member state, Russia is not. Putin gets charged as a war criminal.
So if Putin, like China, started committing atrocities inside his own country, the ICC couldn't cover it, not an ICC issue.
NO, IT ISN'T. The discussion was never about legal liability. You made that excuse! Whether Biden is responsible is a moral question, not a legal one. There's whole fields of moral philosophy about these things. You can be responsible for simply not stopping a third party from doing something, let alone actively enabling them.
Even if that's true, that doesn't matter, and SUBJECTIVELY, I think you're the one with a weird minority position (no responsibility for arming someone known to be dangerous). The whole point is that neither of these position is an objective truth, because they're about moral belief. You've got an opinion, it could even be the majority opinion, but it's an OPINION, because the whole question doesn't have an objective answer.
I really don't get how you think this is a legal question, or that the ICC would be the ultimate deciding body of what legitimate opinions people can hold about responsibility for immoral acts. It's a baffling opinion, and I'd love to do this debate back and forth, but the resolution of our moral debate is irrelevant, because the real problem is that you're moderating based on a subjective belief and for some reason unable to even recognize that moral responsibility is a subjective topic.
It absolutely is, you kept bringing up the subjective vs. objective argument.
The objective truth is the legal rulings from the ICC court cited above.
Your subjective notion of what's "philosophically true" cannot be objectively proven one way or the other. That's the very nature of philosophy.
I gave you the citations from Biden stating his reasoning, I gave you the ruling from the ICC. These are all the legal standings surrounding Biden's support of Israel.
If you want the objective truth, you have it, quoted and sourced. If you choose to reject it, well, I can't help you with that.
Holy fuck man, go talk to one of your other mods, because you're not really not addressing this at all.
This was never a legal matter. YOU injected that to justify moderating a moral viewpoint. The original comments are in the modlog. They weren't making a statement about law. I wasn't making a statement about law. YOU are the one defining the only legitimate "responsibility" a human can hold being if they are charged with a crime.
Do you think China is not responsible for the genocide of the Uyghurs because the ICC isn't charging them? Was Netanyahu not responsible for the genocide before the ICC case? Are only Netanyahu and Gallant responsible because they were the only ones charged? "What the court says is the only allowed truth" is such a broken viewpoint for a moderator to hold on a message board.
YES. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. You moderated a subjective opinion as misinformation and then justified it with your own subjective opinion. Then insisted you were making an objective decision by pretending this was a conversation about the ICC. What the ICC thinks is irrelevant to the whole conversation. You can cite them as much as you want, but it was never the question being discussed. And like really trivially obviously so.
Again, not a moral viewpoint.
Objectively, by any and all legal definition, Israel is responsible for the genocide in Gaza NOT Biden.
Quoted, and cited. You can go on and on about how you "feel" diferently, but you can't say that and ignore a legal ruling as being subjective.
Unless, and I'm open to the very real possibility at this point, that you don't ACTUALLY know the definitions of "objective" and "subjective".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective
1: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
The ICC found Israel and Netanyahu responsible for the genocide in Gaza. Factually true. They did not charge Biden. Factually true. Cited above. This is the objective reality of the situation and comments accusing Biden of genocide will continue to be removed as misinformation.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective
3a : characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind
4a(1) : peculiar to a particular individual
(2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background
5 : lacking in reality or substance
"I don't care what the ICC says! I feel different!"
That would be you. We're done here, it's like talking to a poorly informed wall.
TALK TO YOUR FELLOW MODERATORS. This is both a massive failure as a moderator and breaking your own civility rules. I've been a mod, it's a hard job, but right now you're totally failing at the role and need to step back and reevaluate what you've been doing.
Agreed.
It hurts me to say this but this is an awful and honestly pretty scary failure of moderation in this community.
The stakes unfortunately couldn't be more serious in this case, we are talking about complicity in genocide here, if you are going to moderate on the topic and you have this simplistic of an understanding of the complexities, you are going to hurt people and do real damage to the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Are you really trying to claim that USA supported israel without knowing they would have leveled gaza?
No, I'm saying Biden stated, repeatedly, he was providing support for the legitimate defense of Israel, for which he was a full supporter.
October 25th, 2023: https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-criticizes-extremist-settlers-west-bank-2023-10-25/
August 1st, 2024:
https://www.jns.org/biden-reaffirms-support-for-israeli-self-defense-against-iran-in-call-with-netanyahu/
November 26th, 2024:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-says-israel-has-right-to-self-defense-if-hezbollah-or-anyone-else-breaks-deal/
What Israel chose to do with that aid is on THEM, not Biden.
Biden knew what Israel would have done, because they have been doing the same thing (over and over again) when given weapons.
I suggest getting a .world admin in on this.
You should not be moderating and banning based on your anger and subjective opinion.
Again, Biden's direct quotations are not subjective. He legitimately believes that Israel has the right to defend themselves and supplied support to do that.
Israel misappropriated that support.
Biden acted in good faith, Israel did not.
I don't see how it's any plainer than that.
Was Biden STUPID to do it? Absolutely. That doesn't mean he's the one engaging in genocide, Israel is.