Fuck Cars
A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!
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Ah yes, I'm sure no bikes have to take a left around you. I'm sure you even spoke with the cyclists and found out first hand that they do in fact not want bike paths and prefer to share the road with cars... Like how am I supposed to believe this? Of course there's a reason they chose to ride in the road. Maybe it is to piss off cars, but you would probably be surprised to learn that cyclists don't hate cars the way drivers hate bikes. Most of us cyclists actually own and use a car. We just prefer not to when possible.
I like how the connotation of this is that you have some sort of valid excuse to endanger their lives. Anyway, I believe bikes should have to obey all laws. I'm positive that most of the bikes around you do obey laws and that your opinion is the result of observational bias. I'm sure you also see cars break laws all the time (I sure do), but i don't pretend all drivers are anarchist-suicidal-menaces lol.
I like how I gave real reasons that I personally occasionally don't use a bike lane and pointed out that you don't know why a cyclist might chose to be in the road instead but you're just like, "not ah, strawman!" Like I for real don't know what part of my response you think was a strawman, except maybe my sarcastic final paragraph, but you seem to agree with the sentiment, so then I don't see how I could be misrepresenting you... But here, I'll give you another chance; what nefarious reason might bikes chose the road over the bike path?
Where I live a cyclist may take the lane for any reason. They don't have to prove a need or anything like that. So how is this bad behavior? Just because you don't like it? The bike infrastructure simply doesn't always meet the needs of a commuter on a bike.
Yes imagine if busy roads caused cars to choose routes through neighborhoods instead of larger throughput roads; or if cars went into the other lane to avoid potholes; or went around speed bumps; or even went off road to avoid large bumps (common where I live on dirt roads). Like all those things really happen and I'm not criticizing it. But you pretend to be criticizing it to say a bike shouldn't be allowed in the road to avoid a bumpy bike lane. Sorry, but bikes simply are allowed in the road. No matter how unjust you feel it is, it's allowed. Meanwhile plenty of those car examples probably would result in a citation.
Some of what I've said comes off as hot headed, I don't mean to be insulting. At least not overly insulting. But I think you lack perspective. I think if you got on a bike for a while you'd realize how much bike infrastructure is missing. How often you have to get in the road to get to your destination. And how scary it is to share the road with cars. Ain't no one sharing the road for no reason.
It's actually something like a 3 Km straight run (the path I am talking about). There is 1 service road that opens some times in the year but it sits at a full intersection.
No, which is why I posted my comment, I don't get what they do this, sometimes even with kid carries in the back
Same way I am believing the points on your reply.. you know, before you just started getting mad for no reason. Do you want to know what path I am talking about? here it is: https://maps.app.goo.gl/3ZZ2eDbovvypowbM8
Did you get that from the part I said I do everything possible to give them space? it is hard when you have a vehicle on the road that does not follow the road rules. A cyclist that goes through a red light is as dangerous as a car doing the same...
The strawman was the sarcastic comment about how cyclists "just don't want" to use the road... you can't even keep your argument straight
Maybe the cyclists don't like the stop signs that the path frustratingly has but the road does not? Around that stop there are two within a few hundred metres, and frequently stopping (or slowing down fot a rolling stop) makes riding slower and more tiring. That's probably not nearly the entire motivation, though.
Thanks for the reply
Yeah that bike path looks sweet, not sure why a cyclist would go in the road. But lets not pretend the reason is nefarious (unless, again, you have a good reason to think so). I'll also mention that kid carriers are often used for cargo and not just for kids - I wouldn't want to bring my kid on a road with cars while biking - but maybe some do.
Mate, you are advocating against some of the infrastructure I care about most, and that saves lives, and your reasoning is literally just that some bikes are still on the road. Bad opinions that disagree with my own (hopefully justified ones) are frustrating. Feel free to help me see your point of view, but you aren't any more right just because you claim I'm mad.
No, I got if from the part I quoted... :
It's the "even though" part. That rhetoric suggests that you'd be in the right to not give space or something
As far as I'm concerned those sarcastic comments of mine are still your opinion. I did ask for clarification. It's in bold lol. This doesn't mean my argument isn't straight - at least as far as I'm concerned. But please feel free to clarify...
I never did... I literally said I just did not understand the behaviour... that is all... the entire "bad faith argument" is in your head
No, I am trying to understand why they are not used when they are, by far, the safest option.
So it's a surprise to you that erratic behaviour on the road may lead to more accidents?! If I had said the same thing about drunk drivers, would you assume I am giving myself the permission to go out and hurt them? I think this interpretation says more about you than me bud. The only reason I even posted here was to try and understand why cyclist do not use their safer options, precisely because I cannot understand why people would choose to put themselves in harms way... it turns out, people like you rather put themselves in danger and blame everyone else for, saving a few minutes in commute
Oh so you issue an opinion, assign it to me and then attack me for it?.... well that's a new level of strawmaning
I am starting to think you're trolling. We've gone in a few circles... Could be a communication issue on my part, but it feels more like dishonest debating on your part, to me... Benefit of the doubt and all that though:
I gave reasons why I sometimes don't use the bike path, hopefully you understood those reasons. If not, just say so and I can try to explain better. Unfortunately I can't say why some bikers don't use your specific 3k section, but feel free to ask them I guess. But I do still think "In Ottawa, bike lanes mean nothing" is rhetoric against bike lanes/paths. Even if your next statement is that you don't understand why bikes are still in the road.
A bit unrelated but a bike lane (or even just the car lane) is sometimes safer than a bike path due to visibility at crosswalks (probably not in your 3k bike path situation though).
I... actually didn't say that though... So who is assigning opinions? I pointed out that what you said implies that another's behavior may not justify your extra caution if they're doing something illegal. The correct drunk driving example would be this statement:
See how the "even if" part suggest they might not deserve your goodwill? As if you'd be more inclined to give space to bikes if they never broke the law. Maybe my interpretation of your statement isn't what you actually meant? (Side note, just checked your original comment and it actually said "even though" - doesn't change anything I think).
This is kinda rich. Because while I did say that the road is more dangerous than a separated bike path, I didn't suggest that I blamed cars or others for the increased risk I take when I chose the road over the bike path. I weigh the risks and chose convenience. If I had it my way, bike infrastructure would just meet my needs on a bike better than road infrastructure so that I never wanted/needed to be in the road. So then is this a moot point? Maybe even a strawman? You've accused me of a few strawmans but I'm starting to think you either don't know what that means, or just don't hold yourself to a similar standard.
Also, all people in all parts of life do dangerous things for convenience? Cars speed, or maintenance is ignored, actually just driving at all is likely the most dangerous thing anyone does in their life on a regular basis. Biking and walking are safer without cars around, but around cars, cars disproportionately endanger bikes and pedestrians. Most people don't care (because of personal convenience at the expense of others), but I think it could make a legitimate argument for the need for safer biking and walking infrastructure.
This actually kind of is the fault of me - I was thinking you never answered my question of ~"so then what nefarious reason are bikes in the road when a bike path exists?" But you actually did clarify that you don't know and don't think the answer has to be nefarious. Where I got confused is that my base claim is that <they probably have a reason, and it probably isn't to make cars angry> and since it felt like you didn't accept my claim, it led me to believe that you hold <they don't have a good reason, or the reason could be to make cars angry>. So I guess maybe we agree here, and maybe we don't. I'd appreciate some clarity though
Edit: I also want to throw in that your original claim was for Ottawa but the goal post has shifted to your 3k section of bike path. Yet you haven't specified that you're only confused about the actions of cyclists at your 3k section of bike path. But since I've sort of exhausted any input for your 3k section, here's a video that may give you some clarity: Why Don’t Cyclists Use Bike Lanes?
You're wondering why cyclists would rather use that lovely, low-throughput park road -- literally named a "scenic driveway" -- than the multi-use path mixed with pedestrians and dogs and whatnot. Perhaps they like going more than 15km/h. They are not getting in anyone's way, there. It's a frigging park. This road goes nowhere you need to get in a hurry. Frigging un-clench.