this post was submitted on 23 Jul 2023
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War in Ukraine
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War is organized murder and nothing else.
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Aim for de-escalation, create a situation where both sides can save face and settle on borders that support that.
Why does Ukraine need to save face? Why does Ukraine need to give up any territory?
Because otherwise this war will continue. Zelensky needs to save face, because he has said he won't stop until they reclaimed all stolen territory, including Crimea. Putin similarly needs to be able to spin a story towards his people.
How is that in any way Just? How can you say it's okay for one country to invade another and the sensible thing to do is let them have a bit of territory to "Save face"?
What if they declared an end to the war, then Ukraine invaded Russia, took more territory back than they lost and then said "well let's just keep a little territory so we can all save face".
Zelensky doesn't need to save face, not while a single inch of ground is under Russian control.
How is it just that thousands of innocents get murdered over some power struggle? Borders aren't real physical things. They're just lines on a map and have no intrinsic meaning. They're a political concept, just like war is politics.
I believe the dignity of human life (or actually any life) prevails over some man-made concepts like borders.
Sure, but if some asshole dictator can invate a country and get a chunk of its land to "save face", what makes you think he won't just do it again?
Case in point, Crimea in the first place. They tried the whole "Let's just end the war to save lives and save face" thing and a few years later, here we are again.
I think there are other ways to fight authoritarianism. It can definitely include violence, but imo only as a defensive measure. Right now it's all about the offense.
I also don't think Putin or its successor will all of a sudden become non-authoritarian when Ukraine wins back all territory. The threat (and fact) of Russian leadership oppressing people will stay, regardless of how far the Ukrainians push back the Russians. Setting up defenses will be needed regardless of how this war will end.
Right now innocents are dying in terrible conditions over this political play. I understand that you believe that that is less important than winning back territory, to the point that you support creating more suffering and death by letting other parties bring more death machines to the war. I think I have clearly outlined that I value these things differently.
I think there are other ways to fight authoritarianism. It can definitely include violence, but imo only as a defensive measure. Right now it's all about the offense.
I also don't think Putin or its successor will all of a sudden become non-authoritarian when Ukraine wins back all territory. The threat (and fact) of Russian leadership oppressing people will stay, regardless of how far the Ukrainians push back the Russians. Setting up defenses will be needed regardless of how this war will end.
Right now innocents are dying in terrible conditions over this political play. I understand that you believe that that is less important than winning back territory, to the point that you support creating more suffering and death by letting other parties bring more death machines to the war. I think I have clearly outlined that I value these things differently.
On the contrary, I value human life above all else, the issue that we disagree upon is how best to protect that life. I can see your standpoint of stopping the killing now to protect people now, but where I fall on this is that I believe it's only a short term gain and that longer term more people will die as it's clear that Russia intends on occupying the whole of Ukraine.
You seem to class Ukraine taking back its own territory as an offensive measure, but I'd class it as defensive. If someone breaks into your house and you push them out of your bedroom into your hallway, you don't just stop there and say "Okay, lets stop the violence here, you can have the hallway". You wouldn't stop until they're outside of your house again.
At least we can agree that the threat of Russia isn't going away and Ukraine will have to defend its territory in future, but that's all the more reason to push them fully back and reclaim all of the territory: If by the end of all of this, Russia has gained nothing, after all the cost and bloodshed, they'll think twice before trying it again. Allowing them to "save face" now is setting them up to spin the whole thing at some point in the future - maybe 5 or 10 years from now.