this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2023
1502 points (79.0% liked)

Memes

44907 readers
2640 users here now

Rules:

  1. Be civil and nice.
  2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 63 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

7 out of 11 countries believe the end of the USSR harmed their countries rather than benefited them

Reflecting back on the breakup of the Soviet Union that happened 22 years ago next week, residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them. Only Azerbaijanis, Kazakhstanis, and Turkmens are more likely to see benefit than harm from the breakup. Georgians are divided.

Hungary: 72% of Hungarians say they are worse off today economically than under communism

A remarkable 72% of Hungarians say that most people in their country are actually worse off today economically than they were under communism. Only 8% say most people in Hungary are better off, and 16% say things are about the same. In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era. This is the result of almost universal displeasure with the economy. Fully 94% describe the country's economy as bad, the highest level of economic discontent in the hard hit region of Central and Eastern Europe. Just 46% of Hungarians approve of their country's switch from a state-controlled economy to a market economy; 42% disapprove of the move away from communism. The public is even more negative toward Hungary's integration into Europe; 71% say their country has been weakened by the process.

Romania: 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism

The most incredible result was registered in a July 2010 IRES (Romanian Institute for Evaluation and Strategy) poll, according to which 41% of the respondents would have voted for Ceausescu, had he run for the position of president. And 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism, while only 23% attested that their life was worse then. Some 68% declared that communism was a good idea, just one that had been poorly applied.

Germany: more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR

Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an "illegitimate state." In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.

28 percent of Czechs say they were better off under the Communist regime

Roughly 28 percent of Czechs say they were better off under the Communist regime, according to a poll conducted by the polling institute SC&C and released Sunday.

81% of Serbians believe they lived best in Yugoslavia

A poll shows that as many as 81 per cent of Serbians believe they lived best in the former Yugoslavia -”during the time of socialism”.

Majority of Russians

The majority of Russians polled in a 2016 study said they would prefer living under the old Soviet Union and would like to see the socialist system and the Soviet state restored.


The above memes are almost always made by Americans, whose brains are riddled with red scare brainworms and are completely devoid of any knowledge or understand of what the left thinks in Europe because Americans do not have a left.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hungarian here. We had ten good years, then the same ruling class started to do the same shit they did back then but under a different name. But at least nowadays you can leave the country, which many do since -- the frequent attempts to do so were an important cultural touchstone here in the 45 years of soviet occupation.

Trust me, no one wants the same shit back, that's just a political talking point propping up Orbán's pro-russian bullshit.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Of course nobody wants the same shit, I don't want the same shit either, I know for sure that the hard left of mszp sit around where I am. Things can be so much better.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They did lead our last good government. And yes, I'd like that too, I voted for the coalition they were in in every election since I had the right to vote. I'm just saying that things being better is not the same as reinstating the same regime we had under the soviets, that would be pretty universally things going worse.

We're in a failing capitalist system, but it still manages to be less oppressive than the failing socialist/communist/call it whatever you want system we had before.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago

Just wait until climate collapse hits and the food supply goes through cascading failures creating famines affecting 6 billion people. Then we'll see when shit really hits the fan.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Another hungarian here. Definitely before 1989 Hungary was probably known for having one of the best living conditions under the USSR's sphere. It went pretty good in terms of spending power (heavy censorship in media if not aligned with the regime's view, forced labor, government spying agents everywhere, couldn't talk about 1956, etc.) until the 70's when Kádár (the dictator of the country) realized that he can't keep up these living standards, except if he takes up debt. So he literally taken up debt to keep up this facade, which really hit to us when we replaced the regime, and since the people have been so used to this kind of populist leadership type, they have chosen Orbán (current president) several times, despite the horrendous amounts of corruption, stomping freedom of speech, fearmongering, spying on opponents phones etc, just because he is really good at continuing the populist ideology which Kádár has done.

EDIT: I'm not saying capitalism is good, I rather support a hybrid model which the EU does currently. Too much state intervention is bad, and too much freedom for corpos are also bad too. In my case my government happily accepts building factories in this country which 100% is better for agriculture, and these corpos doesn't have to pay much tax, can overtime workers and only pay them like 4 years later (yes this is legal).

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The EU doesn't do any hybrid model. Social democracy is still capitalism, being less shitty than the US doesn't make the EU any less capitalist.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Regulated capitalism can be a lot of things. Even good things, I claim. Furthermore, unregulated capitalism turns into feudalism, which is someything we see now in digital sphere a lot. EU tries to regulate capitalism to get the best parts of it, like rewarding fair competetive environment - paradoxically, fair competetion favors collaboration. An alternative to favoring individual and collectove agency is authocracy, and dictors never remain benevolent for long.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

These polls are really out of date. These numbers have since improved substantially in capitalism’s favour.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

These polls are really out of date. These numbers have since improved substantially in capitalism’s favour.

Feel free to give citations that are better than 2010-2016 lmao.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

According to the absolute majority of respondents (54%), the majority of Hungarians had a better life under the Kádár regime (pre-1990) than today

The Kádár regime was the communist government.

there were even more respondents (61%) who said that the conditions for individual financial prosperity were more favorable under the Kádár regime.

lol

It is also worth noting that almost two-thirds of Hungarians (63%) said that there was predictable order and social peace under the Kádár regime

lmao

I like this research. Thanks for sharing.

EDIT:

The older an age group, the higher the proportion was of those who agreed that the majority lived better before the regime change. A significant correlation can be observed when looking at the educational background: citizens with lower education tend to believe that most Hungarians lived better under Kádár. Among the lowest qualified citizens, 62 and 27 percent are the share of the two sides, but even according to the relative majority of graduates (45%), most Hungarians lived better before 1990 than today.

So the older the Hungarian the more likely they are to believe that things were better under communism. So the people that actually lived in communism support it even more. Oh and the more educated people are the more likely they are to support that position too. I think the age thing will explain why the stat is slipping over time, the people that actually lived in communism are the people that support it more, and as they are dying they are being removed from the data.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The polls quoted are not representative because of the demographics change. The oldest part of the population, who grew up after WW2, prefers soviet union, but it's because it was their youth. Their children, who spent most of their lives in "developed socialism" are much less happy about it. Young people, who grew up in independent states, are overwhelmingly against soviet baggage. And since 2010, when some of the quoted polls were made, older people died.

The only ones who actually regret the decay are russians who morn loss of their empire. Soviet union was just another incarnation of it. Also serbs and hungarians who are a bit isolated in their space.

It is especially strange to see this comment while ukrainians, one of the largest postsoviet states, overwhelminly support and enact literal fight against russian restorational imperialism which tries to bring russian-dominated soviet state back. Or are you questioning this proposition too?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Every single left wing party in ukraine was banned, and my friends in the country were arrested for being socialists. Speech in the country can not be considered free and opinion can not be measured accurately at the current moment in time. It would also be sort of foolish to attempt this with the country split into 4 regions between Ukraine proper, Crimea and the two Donbas republics. Ideally you would include all of them in that data, and if we went back in time and looked pre-2014 (when the civil war started) we'd see a lot of support in those regions. But now? Everything is a mess and I wouldn't trust either states at war to give us reliable data.

I of course don't consider the factions pursuing a restoration of the Russian empire to have anything to do with socialism either. For the record.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What is banned is communist party, and not because it was communist (it was not) but because it was pro-imperialist restoration, and also just for old people who wanted to remember their youth.

I am ukrainian and have ukrainian communist friends, and they are now just as fiercly antirussianimperialism as every one I know in Ukraine. It just shows that the leftist ideas live on, especially among young people (but also their parents, who in 2014 protested for ideas of their children, when children were assaulted for now good reason, starting all the violence). The problem is that any explicit reference to communism or state socialism is very tainted. So you can see why the title meme makes a lot of sense.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You're skipping the 11 other parties that are banned. Very free.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Those are just reformulation of the same concept which has nothing to do with communism, just with soviet state nostalgia. Plus a few were banned after Russia's invasion for supporting the invaders (and they are related to the soviet nostalgia kind). Anyway they lost almost all support, I was even a bit surprised that any Ukrainian I know, even Russian-speaking pro-Russia-ties people are very anti-Russia now - being invaded feels even more like an betrayal for them. Of course I do not exclude that some Ukrainians genuinely support the Russia's narrative, but among hundreds I know personally there is not a single one.

Banning certain parties is along the same lines as Germany banning Nazi party, or would you suggest that's oppression of freedom as well?

Clearly, I do not enjoy this division with Russia, I have Russian family, friends, colleagues. But what their state did is just not the way to do things, it damaged irreparably relations and any remaining pro-Russian political parties or sentiments in Ukraine for a generation. I rather prefer some balance and discourse would continue but nobody did more to push Ukraine away from any pro-Russian politics (even shaped as soviet nostalgia with "communist" banner) than Russia itself.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

All of that only speaks to western capitalism being shit, and not so much to soviet communism being any good tbh

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Capitalism as it exists outside of the Imperial Core tends to be shit. Eastern Europe is still outside the core for the most part, as is most of the world.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It's shit inside the Imperial Core as well. There are few people profiting a lot from it, and they try to give barely enough leftovers to enough of the population to stop them from resisting.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

7 out of 11 countries believe the end of the USSR harmed their countries rather than benefited them

That's because USSR was designed intentionally so that its end would be a catastrophe. To prevent that end. However, since it was simply unable to exist further even on life support, what happened happened still.

End of USSR being bad doesn't mean USSR being good. It's just a choice between horrible end and horror without end.

I live in Russia and you do not.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I live in Russia and you do not.

Which area of Russia do you live in and what do the local people over 60 that actually lived in the USSR have to say? I already know of course and could post video interviews of such, but perhaps you could tell the thread what those people say.

Forgive me for assuming but I'm willing to bet you're in your teens or twenties, making you at best 10 years old when it ended, meaning you have little to no actual recollection of what living and working was like. I could be wrong of course.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Which area of Russia do you live in

Moscow, I also had relatives in SPb (not anymore), other relatives in Nizhny Novgorod, other relatives in Voronezh, and some in Rostov-on-Don.

and what do the local people over 60 that actually lived in the USSR have to say

Different things for different people.

Educated people in general have to say on politics the same things that I said earlier, but they are very nostalgic over less criminalized popular culture, better technical education and rules being followed. So am I to some extent actually.

Less educated and poorer people would have uncritical approval of whatever they approve now. USSR, because "people had everything and everything was cheap and deficit is a lie", even though they lived to see it and themselves mention it in unconnected conversations, but it's always some enemies behind it, or maybe of Putin and so on.

Can be seen with my aunts in Armenia too, one of them is a pharmacist and sees things adequately, if pessimistically. Another is an accountant and goes into complete denial in any honest conversation about anything political, she just can't bear it as some people can't bear honest conversations about sex.

There may be gradations.

I already know of course and could post video interviews of such

That's not an argument. You can make video interviews with all kinds of people of all kinds of demographics to say what you want. That's what propaganda does since "video" became a thing. Discarded.

but perhaps you could tell the thread what those people say.

Yes, see the above.

Forgive me for assuming but I’m willing to bet you’re in your teens or twenties, making you at best 10 years old when it ended, meaning you have little to no actual recollection of what living and working was like. I could be wrong of course.

No recollection at all, I'm 1996, but since transition from USSR to modern Russia didn't happen in an instance, in various institutions and organizations you can still see in some ways how it was. More in my childhood than now, but still.

Also naturally I have parents and grandparents, and friends' parents and their grandparents, and parents' friends, and so on, you get the idea.

I live in this society and you don't, so I know more than you, which could help you if you weren't in denial.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago

Educated people in general have to say on politics the same things that I said earlier, but they are very nostalgic over less criminalized popular culture, better technical education and rules being followed. So am I to some extent actually.

In Moscow? You're not being fair. Educated people in the soviet union from Moscow lived extremely well and have very positive views. Engineers, scientists, etc will all say positive things. You know as well as I do that hundreds of video interviews will confirm this. Be fairer, claiming that everyone that supports the ussr among the over 60s is just uneducated is definitely untrue. This particular video series is in Moscow and this lady is exactly what I am talking about.

You can't live in Moscow and say this is untrue. You're being unfair.

No recollection at all, I’m 1996, but since transition from USSR to modern Russia didn’t happen in an instance, in various institutions and organizations you can still see in some ways how it was. More in my childhood than now, but still.

Brought up in shock therapy then.

if you weren’t in denial.

I'm not in denial. I'm asking you to be fairer. The data does not support your position. You know as well as I do that 75% of the country consider the soviet era to be when the country was at its greatest (and that this is easily verifiable from many sources), and you know damn well that 75% of the country aren't all uneducated people. You are not being fair.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And? Socialism does not mean not having a multiparty system. I get that you're trying to imply that approving of a multiparty system or a market economy is somehow evidence of being against socialism but both of those things exist under socialism. Yugoslavia was a market economy in eastern europe under socialism.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yugoslavia was a market economy in eastern europe under socialism.

There was a limited amount of pseudo-private "workers collective" (OOUR) companies starting from the mid 70s all the way to the breakup. It was certainly not a market economy in any meaningful way. The entire economy was propped up by foreign loans, which was a cause of so much inflation that the currency had to be re-adjusted twice, starting from the late 60s.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This is getting too semantic for my liking we would argue all day about whether Tito's efforts were a market economy or not. You acknowledge that market economies and multiple parties do exist in socialist countries though correct?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The word "Socialism" is too broad to be useful here, it can refer to democratic socialism, which is the dominant political stance in Nordic countries, so yes, market economies and social programs can co-exist.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The nordic countries aren't socialism ffs. They are social democracy, capitalist states with welfare policies and a ruling class of bourgeoisie. This is political illiteracy. Adding welfare to capitalism does not make socialism, it makes ""friendly"" capitalism (backed by imperialism of the global south). Read Imperialism in the 21st Century, it is suicide fuel for socdems.

A real example of democratic socialism to discuss would be any of the states created by the Bolivarian revolutions. Venezuela under Chavez. Bolivia under MAS. Etc. Socialist states with a proletarian ruling class.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah but my personal anecdotes from Eastern European relatives who left (no selection bias there) say otherwise, so you're wrong.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Wow, the level of dishonesty in your post is startling. Almost all (or perhaps all?) of your links have serious problems with them. I wish I had time to debunk them all, but let's go with just the first one for now.

7 out of 11 countries believe the end of the USSR harmed their countries rather than benefited them

According to the article itself, there are 15 countries that came from the Soviet Union, not 11. And obviously Estonians, Latvias, and Lithuanians would not say that the fall of the SU hurt them. (For the fourth, Uzbekistan, I don't know which way they would go.) But "7 (or 8) out of 15 countries believe the end of the USSR harmed their countries rather than benefited them" doesn't have the same ring to it, so you didn't post that, because you are dishonest.

And that the study didn't conclude that these countries wanted to return to communism or return to the Soviet Union (they don't, other than Russians, the imperialists), it concluded that they believe that the fall of the SU hurt them. Which is plausible: collapse events aren't pretty, even if it's the collapse of an evil regime (see Iraq with ISIS filling the void for another example). You of course conflate the these points to pretend that these countries want communism and the SU back.

Maybe if you didn't have such a ideological agenda you wouldn't dishonestly cherry pick headlines for propaganda purposes?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Agreed. Having in-laws in Romania I can tell you the sentiment about the Soviet union is generally not great.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ahh yes the famous american communist propaganda outlet Gallup which certainly isn't widely regarded worldwide.

This comment is dripping with sarcasm, in case you didn't notice.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nice job avoiding all my main points.

The only problem with the Gallup link is only the title, which is (probably unintentionally) misleading. I didn't say anything about it being propaganda, that's just more of your bullshitting.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

"Speak to eastern europeans!"

"Wait not those ones!"

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Gallup, not working web, spiegel. All propaganda.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Spiegel? Propaganda? It's literally the largest German news website mate. Trying to attack the authority of the source here is nonsense. And gallup is one of the most internationally recognised polling companies in the world largely for its refusal to do polls funded by any political party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel_(online) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallup,_Inc.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Authority source? What? It clearly shows where you come from (not referring to a specific country, just your environment). And yes, of course, those are "news" outlets like fox news and rt, right? /s. Oh look, Wikipedia article, it must be truth. /s. Sorry, I can't be nice with propaganda agents. Bye.