this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2024
399 points (82.2% liked)
Lefty Memes
4013 readers
22 users here now
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, upvoting good contributions and downvoting those of low-quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,
as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Seems like a good spot for this:
Nonviolence works the same way: if you're engaging with someone / some group who isn't violent, there's an expectation that you'll also remain nonviolent. If they pull a gun on you and you happen to be packing (and a quick shot) and shoot em dead, that does NOT bring you down to their level.
From the German constitution:
Exactly. I don't get why this simple concept is so hard to understand. I've had many people claim Germany doesn't have freedom of speech since you are not allowed to salute Hitler. By invading other's rights, you give up yours. It's not hard to comprehend.
Based
There also is this section:
God bless Germany
Wold be nice if "liberal democracy" consisted of anything that can be called democratic with a straight face - perhaps then Germany wouldn't be one of Israel's most vitriolic genocide enablers.
What exactly are you referring to?
You did know there's a western-backed genocide being perpetrated in Palestine right now, right?
I’m asking what the war in Gaza has to do with the democratic order in Germany
You mean... apart from the fact that Germany is funding, supporting and enabling Israel's genocide?
But what does this have to do with democracy? If the elected parties fund a war, morally correct or not, it is still democracy as they were chosen. There are multiple German parties who oppose Israel, but they weren’t elected
I hate to be the one to break it to you - "liberal democracy" is about as "democratic" as the Soviet Union was "socialist." Liberalism, capitalism and imperialism is violently incompatible with any society that can be described as democratic with a straight face - and always has been.
Did Germans collectively agree to this genocide that is being funded in their name? Do they even really know what is being done in their name?
No?
Then there's absolutely nothing democratic about it, is it?
Not all Germans have the same opinion, but a complete consensus isn’t needed, as long as there is a majority. And in Germany this majority is not that of a referendum but the elected parties, as it is unrealistic to have a referendum for every single decision and most countries have not learned how to handle referendums, but one can still make their own party, in fact that just recently happened, the party (BSW) was founded, got 6 percent in the election (which in Germany can actually get you in the government) and AFAIK they oppose non humanitarian aid completely. I don’t think there’s any country where the population knows exactly what the government is doing, so it’s unrealistic to ask that everyone knows what is happening (although this is a problem). There have been multiple demonstrations against Israel’s actions and I personally know people who oppose these actions, about as much how support them but the big majority of people I know don’t care that much. Also the second biggest party (which never was part of a government) thinks that (and it’s one of their main points) that the Islam is the biggest threat to the existence of Germany so you could probably find a lot of people who think that Palestine should be blown up.
Also one question, are you actually from Germany or have you just read these things? Because the politics, mentality and economics are a lot different to for example the USA so maybe something’s appear differently than they would look to a German.
Oh, there was no decision here... Germany has been supporting Israel's ongoing genocide for a very, very long time now. Enabling Israel's white supremacist genocide is no less a matter of policy in Germany than it is in the US - and none of you will ever get to vote on it, just like USians don't get to vote on it in any way, shape or form.
Let us be very clear... knowingly enabling genocide is no different than perpetrating genocide oneself - and Germany endorsing Israel in their genocidal project makes it blatantly clear that Germany is as fundamentally white supremacist and imperialist today as Germany was when it perpetrated it's first genocide in Namibia. It doesn't matter that the people signing the papers are wearing overpriced designer-label suits instead of grey uniforms, and it doesn't matter that the politicians are flashing liberal pretend-smiles for the cameras instead of throwing fascist tantrums from a podium. It's all the exact same white supremacism still at work.
Yeah... I saw. And the fascist goon squads were there, too - to perform their true function and ensure that actual democracy doesn't threaten the precious status quo while it's hard at work enabling genocide.
Isn't it an amazing coincidence that the biggest parties in every (so-called) "liberal democracy" are almost always regurgitating the exact same narratives that rich people themselves want regurgitated?
It's almost like... actual democracy isn't compatible with a society where a small, rich elite gets to dictate what everybody believes, eh?
No. I'm from South Africa... if you must know.
Any system can be undermined with enough criminal energy.
People often argue against certain laws that they can be abused if judges collude with the executive.
But if the separation of power between executive, legislative and judiciary and the related mutual controls break down then the actual laws don't matter anymore anyway.
Love that, thank you.
Does the paradox of tolerance even exist?
If you tolerate a group that hates a group of people, there are people that hate a group of people, meaning the society is intolerant to that group of people until those people are gone
If you dont tolerate a group that hates a group of people, there are people that hate the group that hates a group of people, meaning the society is intolerant to that group that hates the group of people until those people are gone
Because there is no way to become a tolerant society until one of the 2 groups is gone, the easiest way to become a tolerant society would mean getting rid of the easiest group you can get rid of.
Which group would be easiest to get rid off:
Anything else wouldnt matter since the society will remain intolerant
PS: by "get rid off", i mean remove people from the group, not specifically kill
Exactly: there is no paradox there if you don't think of tolerance as an absolute. This blog post put it pretty well:
What if they start by shouting "He's got a gun!" and then pulling a gun and firing at you? And then what happens if the news media reports the killing as "Brave hero defends neighborhood against armed criminal" while encouraging other people to behave in a similar fashion? And then what happens if the people shouting "He's got a gun!" and shooting, as an excuse to engage in a kind of localized ethnic cleansing or social repression, are members of and friends with the local police department?
How do you resolve the paradox of tolerance when you aren't in a position physical, social, or political of dominance?
A take on the paradox of tolerance that I really like is that tolerance is not a moral absolute: tolerance is a peace treaty and not a suicide pact, so its "protection" is only afforded to those who abide by the treaty and it doesn't mean tolerating everyone no matter what. Here's a blog post on this, and a relevant quote: