this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2024
1519 points (93.2% liked)
Progressive Politics
840 readers
96 users here now
Welcome to Progressive Politics! A place for news updates and political discussion from a left perspective. Conservatives and centrists are welcome just try and keep it civil :)
(Sidebar still a work in progress post recommendations if you have them such as reading lists)
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
how about this, we get 80% of the country, the disenfranchised non-voters and vote for an actually decent third party and destroy them both
Well for starters we would need to actually have a decent third party that’s worth voting for
Good. I would also like a pony.
is the Democratic strategy for engagement to respond with cynicism and low bars?
Left-leaning but still feel that internet troll down in your loins? Become a True Blue^tm^ member today! Just have to make up a completely false meme and decry anyone in the comments who has another opinion on politics!
If your other opinion is "don't vote for Democrats" yes, I decry thee.
Always has been when it's critical of them
Unlike . . . who
Is that your reasoning for punching left?
No
Excellent rebuttal
You need a thesis statement?
“Unlike . . . who” is not my reason for punching left.
Any other questions?
It's as good at the post so no but wasn't expecting any actual answer
As to why anyone would punch left? Or just, at all?
If the former, it’s because we’re in an existential crisis as a country, and while the right-wing nutjobs are either asleep at the wheel or as batshit or corrupt as expected, the “left” (for our purposes here) are contributing to the right-wing’s efforts, and proudly.
If American democracy - the fate of not just the government but effects around the world - were a kitchen-on-fire, republiQans are cheering, Democrats are running in and out with a bucket of water to put it out, and “the left” as it appears to be defined here, is a petulant jerk at the table yelling “you suck at running!” every time the Democrat passes by.
That’s why. If someone is an American and a registered voter, and they don’t vote Democrat this election, they have no right - none at all - to consider themselves progressive. And no one here (well, no American registered voter, anyway) should need that explained.
Would love if dems fought this hard against the GOP.
Or had actual long terms othet than not being GOP...
I don’t know what counts as “fighting this hard” but dems do fight the GOP all session long. No one else does, with the sometimes exception of, like, Angus King.
Yes they fight so hard.
It's why we got ACA instead of universal Healthcare. Almost got social security cuts, other cuts to social programs and right wings dream immigration bill in the form of an executive order by Biden.
Nice cherries ya picked there.
First of all, no, and second of all if Obama had pushed H4A in 2008 you wouldn't have anything. "Progressives" - or whoever- forget about that and somehow come to the conclusion that, well, since we didn't get the moon and a bag of chips these guys are just as bad as those guys.
So let me ask you if you think anyone is fighting hard in Washington. If no, then fair enough we can agree to disagree. If yes, who?
No one is that's the fucking issue. The most we've gotten is Nancy tearing up a piece of paper
So who just filed articles of impeachment on Alito and Thomas?
Was it someone from the Green party? Perhaps a feisty Independent like Krysten Sinema? Y'know, someone who fights hard?
Hey, 2017-2020 I give you that. The Dems were worthless. But 2020-now I've seen a lot of good things happen. I want more. And the option - there is one option right now - and that option is not good things.
And crazy marge put in impeachment articles for biden. What's your point?
Still waiting on any ethics push from senate.
What do you think they've done to fight since 2020?
After vaccination tiny push they stopped caring about covid. Ignored doing anything to investigate trump. Fucked up where they charged him in the secret document case.
We got what a super watered down IRA bill? Then sanctions on the materials that would be used to help lower carbon emissions.
Oh and still killed immigration by implementing the republican wet dream at the border.
So please tell me the fighting as I'm so fucking tired of our 2 useless right wing parties.
Are you saying you didn’t get everything you wanted so therefore they’re not fighting hard? Are you thinking they’re not saying we want free school lunches, we want to tax the rich, we want to support Ukraine, just - what floating listlessly in space? How does this get done without fighting hard, and who or what needs to be fought?
Oh I know you don’t need another list of accomplishments, so are you saying they got those super easy? Really? No fight needed eh. Right.
Have you ever gotten something approved by 20 people? 350 people? 65 Million people? Any idea how it actually plays out? It plays out that way for many reasons, not least of which is it’s hard to build consensus and easy to destroy it.
I get the dems are not rubber-stamping the gay space communism we so deserve, yes, I have many complaints for them, but calling them right-wing is ridiculous. And if you can’t see your way to not supporting the actual-no-foolin-seriously-this-is-fucked-up fascist party, okay.
Amazing how all your arguments and reasoning boils down to shut up and stop complaining about their shittyness while also trying to say it'll all get better once they're the only party.
Or is it just you don't understand why a progressive space can see how shit the dems are. Better than Republicans but that is such a low bar we want better.
Also you are one of those who think we aren't voting blue because we are critical of the party that says they are better.
Are you suggesting the dems can't see how shit the Dems are?
I would point out - I remember Reagan. Local and national Democratic strategies almost never recovered. They've been shit for decades. You know how long it takes to change minds? Look at us here now- just two people talking. Multiply that by 300 Million.
Walter Mondale was a fine person but a terrible choice for president. we bitched about that to deaf ears. We saw how shit dems were, if you will. And called it out.
Dukakis was a reasonable choice who campaigned like a republican and got trounced because the dems simply refuse to understand how communications work. (That, or, they're a shadow-op run by the dark lizard cabal to keep everyone enslaved. Or possibly somewhere in between.) We saw how shit dems were with that and called it out, also "progressives" were either nowhere to be seen or they were democrats.
Bill Clinton was the first time in over a decade a democratic national politician had any recognized sway since Carter. That was a long goddamned fucking decade, I can tell you. A long decade where dems were shit - and again, we called them out. Clinton did a lot of good things. He also did some terrible things that fit the political tenor of the time and were still terrible, and we called him out for that. More cops, cut down welfare, telecomm act. A lot. Got nowhere. This also happened to be the time when Fox News began destroying public debate. Which really helped. At least we didn't get into a war of choice for some bullshit reason like Oil again. And that was very much an option.
As we saw with Bush II. Who had meetings about invading Iraq before he was inaugurated and what-ho hey lookit that we invaded Iraq for bullshit reasons that everyone called out and stood on streetcorners yelling and honking and - nothing. The "progressives" weren't born then I guess or something, that was just dems who fought it. Our Democratic head of the Senate, Tom Daschle, was roundly pilloried for being as strong as a wet rag. Also got nowhere despite knowing how very much shit the dems were.
Oh by-the-by, your "progressive" ranks (I guess - who knows really) got their third party chance on a national platform. Ross Perot had borked up Bush I's chances in 1992, but here we had Al Gore (democrat) and Ralph Nader (. . . third party? I forget the party name) Anyway. Many intrepid "progressives" voted Nader and Gore lost. Which, to be fair, was his fuckup too. But had everyone voted Gore we wouldn't have had the surveillance state and war on terror we got. But hey - dems are shit, right.
Then Obama. we got somewhere. Not sure how, but getting some progressive ideas on the table made the right-wing absolutely batshit crazy. Fox News went off the fucking rails. Yes it didn't help that Obama was black but they went nuts also because the left was starting to get things done. Did Obama implement the gay space communism we so deserved? No. In fact, we gave him a year or so, and after the republican "T.E.A. Party" cheated back the majorities, he basically took this position of "well, this is what the people want" and we didn't like that at all. Gave him tons of shit for it. Because we knew the dems were being shit again.
Then Hillary. The primaries were pretty gory, and there was a lot of shitting on her as unelectable, as indeed she proved to be. You think that was "progressives" doing that? Who were the progressives in 2015? Hm? Jill Stein? Really? Putin's dinner companion? Michael Flynn's travel bud? That's your answer is it. Pathetic.
Look, you and your eight friends want to ride up and attack the castle with a frontal assault, you can have this extra crossbow but you will get slaughtered. It's just the fact. I can recount the stories of the other slaughtereds if you prefer but I doubt you do. I say again - there is one chance to avoid utter insane bullshit for four years that we or the planet absolutely can not afford. It is not third party, it is not trump. What's left? Pardon the pun.
Cool still managed to blame everyone but the dems for all their issues, including the 2016 election.
Continue punching left buddy and wonder why people keep saying Biden needs to be replaced after we've all be yelling he shouldn't have run for relection.
We'll be here still getting blamed
He trotted out the Clintons and every crappy Democrat after that to prove his point. We're not going to achieve anything with the majority consensus. We've got to reach those that those people deemed as not important enough to worry about. And I doubt it starts with voting.
Their entire point has only been get blues in but not accepting why we need more than that.
Oh well
It's going to hurt, one way or the other. I'm willing. I'm just one. I need access to a physical community. I'm working on it, but time ticks.
Who else am I gonna blame for 2016? Where did I blame [not-dems]?
I’ll “punch” whoever gets trump elected. Is that the idiot “left” who bring the combined wisdom of every twenty year old and the natural genius inherent in it?
Sure. Listen to nothing. Demand the improbable, vote the impossible, and sentence a lot of people who don’t know as much as you do to a horrifying several more years. After that, you can start kicking and crying again when the largest progressive party picks someone you don’t find appealing again. Assuming any relevant structures remain.
If you actually get involved in a progressive political party you think is national, let us know. Democrats are open to change, and they’re the only ones. Or - y’know, go full sovereign citizen and renounce the concept of countries. Also as effective. Please stay out of prison.
I'm attacking everyone I think is wrong but you are the issue
Again still waiting for you to have anything to offer or suggest.
I think it's gotten to the point it's clear you just want to rant so have a great day
To offer?
Not living in hellish shitland chaos for four more years? Is that not clear?
To suggest - . . . voting for the Democrat who’s running against trump?
What . . .what did you think we were talking about?
Or maybe it's because of reaching for easy, comfortable reasons when the rest of us can't find them, and are seeking long term solutions.
What?
It's the Democratic strategy to not be a fool whenever possible. Or, y'know, it should be.
First of all 80% of the country is irrelevant because only voters vote. Babies and non-registered people can't vote. So 80% of them are pretty useless in an election. So far so good?
Secondly, if you can engage non-voters into voting you're an unhailed supergenius who has figured out what centuries of political hacks have not. Please explain how to achieve this power. And if your first thought is something that's already been tried, please move to the line of political hacks who have not figured it out.
Thirdly no third parties are "actually decent" unless you want to define that such that it fits your favorite third party - because any definition of a 'decent' third party is one that can win, and none of them can win. (Why not make Star Trek a third party, that way when we win the election we all get to explore space and have replicators and what not. Oh because it's entirely fictional, right. And so are the presidential administrations of any third party right now)
If you're talking about 2028 or beyond, sure, what's your pitch? Because if "progressives" want to sit around for four more years doing nothing and then bitch again about how unprogressive the Democrats are - welcome to the world of tomorrow - today!
If you want to get super high and imagine a beautiful outpouring of people to the polls - feel free. It's not like it hasn't been done. But to actually win the one coming up in roughtly 14 weeks you're going to need to rush to get that 80% number. You'll need work from thousands of unpaid volunteers, hundreds of millions of dollars for infrastructure, promotions, and operations, and an electable human or two.
Or, if you prefer to wistfully whinge that Democrats aren't progressive enough and not vote for them, you can watch everything burn more. Is that a strategy for voter engagement? No. It's reality. Make a more perfect union, but to do that you have to vote. Voting for a party that has zero chance is dumb.
How are you this dense lol. Peak DNC brain here
This is as fictional as Star Trek. What would be very possible is for the Democratic party to replace their candidate; while the centrists myopically claim there's no time for it, data from every other country in the world proves that you can do that in under 100 days. Moreover, it would serve all the Democrats' purposes: it would build an inspiring narrative about them "moving mountains" to ensure they serve the people.
Unfortunately, we on the outside can't do much besides push on the DNC to act in our interests (speaking for myself - I don't know how many Dem fundraisers you can afford to attend). But you're lying to yourself if you think you only need me for my vote: you need boots on the ground. I've canvassed every year to get the vote out for my state reps and fucking coroner. Am I going to do that this year?
Well, yes.
Not if the candidate doesn’t want to be replaced.
If the US was like every other country we wouldn’t have this electoral college nonsense.
The ponies will be free, and the toothbrushing mandatory.