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If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it's a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it's wrong, just hard.
it's a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we're helping just by being quiet.
Yes, but there's a disconnect between helping directly and helping indirectly. Listening is indirect help, passive help. It's helping simply by existing, which is antithetical to the above commenters train of logic.
I'm not saying you're wrong, or that it's not something that people should learn to do... but it's not always something you can solve by making that connection.
I think my problem is also we're told to be empathetic and emotionally present. So what we're being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I find this much more difficult than solving whatever the problem is, because, maybe I'm weird, but I feel pretty much all the suffering around me as if it's happening to me, and especially when it's my wife suffering.
what we're being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I know that isn't actually what people think they are asking for, but it sure feels like it so often.
Thanks for putting this into words for me.
Perhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren't allowed to do that.
Rubber ducking, not just for programmers. Listen, acknowledge what you're hearing, ask open ended questions (not leading), and learn from and about their experience. You'll grow closer and both people can gain a lot from it.
Interesting. How is that?
If you are asking what rubber ducking is, it's the practice of explaining your issues to a toy as if it were a coworker. Explaining your issues to a coworker forces you to organise your thoughts and problems so that wherever you tell makes sense, and a lot of times the act of organising pushes you to vetch the fault in your logic, or the issue that needs fixing, the missing part...
Except...
I feel bad for my rubber ducky. It still helps though! The number of support/bug report emails that never get sent because I figured it out from the same thought process is not 0. I read this once, but talking/thinking about the problem, just the problem, for 5+ minutes before trying to come up with solutions can be really helpful.
For anyone struggling with this, two hints that might help you frame your role better:
Listening is the solution. By trying to solve what your SO told you, you are actually trying to solve the wrong problem. Their real problem is that their brain needs to say things aloud to someone in order to correctly process it's own thoughts. Therapists make a frickin' living off of that quirk of our brains and it's the actual problem they come to you with. Even better: By listening you can not only advise on solutions, you can be the solution! Neat, huh?
Listening and solving aren't mutually exclusive. If you stick to listening first, your SO might actually come to a point where your advice is wanted. Pro tip: Once their thoughts slow down, ask if they want to hear what you think about the issue. From my experience, the answer will be "yes" very often. That way, your thoughts will actually reach your SO and not get blocked by frustration outright. Yet, as with everything else: No means no. So if you get a no, don't try again, shut the fuck up, alright?
I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. "Are we fixing or bitching?" is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it's made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
I (37M) recently caught myself getting frustrated when my wife offered solutions to my ranting. I just wanted to complain and not be told all the ways I could have avoided the problem in the first place. I finally understand.
Yes! It totally happens to everyone, once you notice it. Best self-awareness/relationship advice I've heard is say something like "Are you looking for advice, or someone to listen?". Phrasing and tone to be adjusted by the individual user, obviously XD
Sometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don't need a solution, sometimes there isn't even a solution.
As a problem-solver, it isn't only women.
Most people, especially women, crave connection. We want to feel seen and understood. Cutting us off to provide a quick solution feels as if you really just want us to shut up so you can go back to whatever you were doing.
I acknowledge that the cutting off part is valid, but that wasn't in OPs post.
Top the broader point, I can say confidently that many men feel like to provide an actionable solution to a problem projects exactly what you say that you want - to us it says that we've seen, heard and understood you and we cared enough to process the information we heard and offer a solution that we formed by investing some real thought/energy into you as a person we care about.
Can you empathize with how, to a person with the above perception, that just quietly nodding along and saying, "that's really tough" or "I'm sorry about that honey" would sound like exactly the opposite of what you say you want - Like we're not actually tuned in and listening to you, but rather just waiting for pauses in your speech so we can share generic platitudes while maintaining eye contact to give the illusion that we're invested?
It's a tricky balance and there's likely just a fundamental disconnect that we should address. I think you and I can solve this one for the whole world going forward though, what do you think?
Oftentimes though, if I'm sharing frustration with something, I already have a solution. It's just that it's hard, or inconvenient, or stressful. If my partner comes in immediately with solutions, the discussion immediately turns to practical discussion of the solution I have in mind vs. what my partner thinks is best. If I already have a viable solution in mind, this is not what I need and puts me on the defensive when I'm already stressed and hurt. Especially if my partner doesn't fully understand the problem yet. This has the capability to turn into arguing very fast because it presents the opportunity for disagreement without dealing with underlying emotional states.
However, if my partner instead listens, starts by supporting me emotionally, "I'm sorry, that's tough", and lets me get my piece out, I'm already going to feel a bit better, especially if I can trust my partner not to assume I just haven't thought about it enough. Much of the time, all I need is reassurance and confidence-building in the solution I already have - mirroring on an emotional level without focusing on finding better practical solutions is a perfect way to do that. After I'm freaking out a little less and have laid out the full problem and it's completely understood, I don't mind some "have you tried X" or "what would you think of Y" conversation. But the emotional work and full understanding of the problem has to come first for that to be productive.
At the same time, the way I understand issues and connect with people is to try to relate to them and bounce that back. It helps to make sure my understanding is correct, or identify what is missing.
If that includes something that sounds like solutions, sometimes that's just the natural course of conversation, and people should be just as understanding about the other side of the conversation.
It begins to come across that someone is not looking for conversation, just an audience, and that's not a happy feeling to be on the end of either. It makes us feel just as ignored. After enough of that feeling long term, we can't help but feel like we aren't getting the connection we crave either.
This is a two-way communication issue, and when there's a breakdown, that's not always on us as listeners.
This could also be an issue of this:
The difference between empathy and sympathy
In my experience some people struggle with empathy a lot more than they realise. And the "solutions" they offer are just ways for them to try and get out of an uncomfortable conversation. There are better and more honest ways to do that.
I forgot who, but someone told me i should ask; "do you need an ear or a solution" whenever people come rant about anything. Best tips i heard in a while.
Yes, I started doing this as well with my GF. If she is describing a problem at work or whatever I ask "Do you want me to tell you how I would fix this, or do you just want me to listen?" and like 75% of the time she already knows what to do and just wants me to listen to the problem and then when she is done she feels better because she got to vent, but sometimes she really does want an answer. It works out good for both of us.
Wow. Just wow. This is such an eye-opener. I mean, with all the comments here.
I had no idea this was a common thing! Up until now I thought only my girlfriend was like this.
Also, this makes me understand a Christmas present I received many years ago. I never understood the meaning of it and never knew from whom I received it and why (so I couldn't ask about it), it was just under the Christmas tree next to a book I received. This "gift" was just a note on a piece of very thin wooden sheet, it said "Is it necessary to find a solution to every problem? Can't we just enjoy the problem for a little bit?"
Now it kinda makes sense, although I still don't know why I received it. Yes, I am a very solution-oriented person, but I'm also very introverted, back then I didn't have a girlfriend, I had no friends, I didn't even talk with my family much, and honestly, I couldn't even really find solutions to problems in the first place. I have no clue what made someone give that to me.
Probably your mom.
"Before you start, are you looking for solutions, or are you looking for someone to listen?"
This is an essential relationship skill/concept. Learn it and watch all your relationships improve.
"Are you solution minded or still in the feelings phase?"
I get annoyed because the "solution" they offer is usually the most obvious thing that anyone could come up with in 2 seconds. It's like, don't you think I've already thought of that? I wouldn't complain about something if the solution was simple and obvious.
Yes. Hear me out though. Sometimes the stress of the problem makes those solutions easily forgettable. It's good to have someone ask the obvious questions. It also helps them to find out where you are in your troubleshooting so if they do have something that might work that wasn't addressed they can provide that as an option. People don't typically get instant downloads of everything that's been tried.
You're not getting it. The listening is the help
My mother is a steel woman, rational and calm, no bitching, no crying, there is a problem? fix it. You need something? say it, don't expect others to guess. Words are empty, you care? See what that person needs and help them. Not a fan of corny things, you want love? There is this delicious food, and a hug, now grow up and keep going.
Aaand everything she taught me, has put me at odds with every women I have dated.
I let you in on a secret: these type of people exist in every gender. So do people who are sensitive and emotional. Stereotypes and sexism about that is dumb. Believing anecdotal evidence speaks for a whole group of people is dumb as well.
What works if someone has a preference is to look early into how a person ticks. Instead of focusing on stereotypes and other superficial assumptions (for example).
They key is to do both. Listen intentently, respond with something like "wow that sucks, would you like a hug?" And then while hugging say something like "is there anything I can do to help you with this?"
That's what will give you your answer. If she says "no" then just let it be. If she says "I don't know" help to guide her to the solution. Ask "what do you think could be done to make it better?" And let the pieces fall in place.
Even if you know the answer, it's better to let people come up with it on their own. They'll feel understood and empowered, and you won't get shit on for being calous. Everyone wins
Eeeeehhhhhhh I have a feeling Lemmy is going to skin me alive for this but I can't help myself.
It's not about the nail.
This meme is pretty belittling to the wife in this scenario and it's kind of fucked.
Rule #1 of being in a relationship is learning to listen and empathize with your partner. Just sit, and listen quietly, and tell them "that really sucks, I am so sorry, I'm here for you" It's really that simple. Most of us are techy and leap to a solution because that's how our brains are wired but they just want someone to listen. Just listen
Concurrently, constantly telling a rational problem solver problems and not letting them offer solutions ALSO takes a mental toll on the listener.
It's bidirectional. It probably will result in compassion fatigue.
Venting is important as a support person. Sometimes it really is just being there for the person.
some many years ago my wife and i had a conversation about this.
sometimes it needs to be communicated to me that she wants to vent. this is different than seeking solutions to a given problem.
I think that's an important thing that seems to get overlooked when this topic comes up. It's a two-way street- if you just want to vent, be sure to say so. Don't get upset when your partner doesn't just assume that's what you want.
Of course, the "two-way street" thing really needs to be emphasized, since the person venting is likely frustrated and can't always be expected to be clearheaded enough to remember to communicate it properly. Also, if all they ever want to do is vent, y'know..maybe that's a pattern you should pick up on eventually (the hypothetical "you," of course. Not the person I'm specifically replying to :P)
I'm a problem solver. I know how to solve those problems!
It took years of marriage before it was pointed out that's not what the complainer wants.
Whenever I complain, I usually already know what needs to be done to solve the problem(if there is a solution). Venting is honestly more for emotional affirmation than anything else.
Of course, if I would suggestions or help, I would not hesitate to ask for them.
