I can see how many points I have on every post. I can see my total points.
How's that different?
this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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I was actually about to make a post about this, addressing this issue, but more glad this is already up.
I'm not a fan of any karma system, regardless of platform. People really tie themselves to reactions, likes, upvotes, downvotes .etc to where it cripples them. Nothing they say or do becomes authentic and natural anymore. They say or do things for the specific purpose to get something to validate what they're saying or doing.
And it creates this frustrating system where we end up having to deal with farmers. Reddit is ingrained with it, because we've seen it one too many times. People reposting junk, they get thousands of upvotes and they aren't held accountable for it. We've also seen people perform downvote brigades, hence coining the term 'downvoted to oblivion'. Where, people proactively downvote every post and comment someone has made because of some spite and out of emotion in regards to an opinion that was said.
And they know the effects of these things, because we tie ourselves way too much into it. I'd like to not see scoring or karma systems everywhere. They do nothing but encourage the worst out of anyone to exploit them. They're meaningless, it's just an internet toy that people play with when so many platforms try so hard to describe their importance. But in the end, it's just a stupid internet toy that serves NO purpose.
While I agree with most points I'd like to give a reason why a voting system can be a good idea. It is a way to filter interest or engagement, posts or comments that got a reaction are likely more interesting to other users as well. And another argument is that it gives perceived value to an account, meaning people will not spamm accounts and banning someone has a perceived consequence. I don't moderate any community so I don't know if that is effective but I feel like thats a reason for keeping a version of that around
Lmao... The TOTAL karma one had was never important. They will still look at how many upvotes is next to their comment, because that's a measure of attention. They still want attention.
It won't make a difference if you can see your total karma or not, ppl will farm upvotes.
Amen. There is not a single purpose for a "karma counter" to exist other than to promote toxic behavior between other users.
"But what about griefers?!"
Report button exists for a reason -- you don't need to bust a griefer twice.
It's so people can judge how other people receive their post. If I take a picture it can give a dopamine hit if people upvote it, and at least tell me it needs work if people downvote it.
Iβm a Reddit mod. I absolutely needed to filter users by karma AND account age. The amount of bot posts is exhausting and impossible to keep up with without a filtering method. If the fediverse continues to grow, something will need to be implemented here too.
Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason that that there are so many bots posts on reddit is because of karma?
What exactly makes account with high karma trustworthy when we all know it can be easily botted and then sold?
Why? You should let each post stand on it's own merit.
First, account age is silly for Lemmy, as almost 100% of people on here will have an account creation date in June 2023 or later because this place was a ghost town before Reddit decided to kill the APIs. A month from now, is someone with an August 2023 join date automatically presumed to be a troll, or are they just someone making the switch from Reddit a month later than everyone else?
As for karma, neither negative karma nor positive karma really tell you anything about the poster:
For instance, people can make good faith arguments advocating for conservative political opinions, but because the user base skews pretty far left here, those arguments will be downvoted. A discussion forum that bans opposing viewpoints is useless, and the echo chambers on Reddit are something I'd love to avoid here.
Similarly, it's also possible to effortlessly build positive karma. Simply copy/paste highly rated comments from the last time a common repost appeared on the feed, and chances are, your copy/pasted comments will get upvoted too. You can even automate it with a bot.
Karma meant nothing at Reddit, and moderators shouldn't be using it for decisionmaking purposes. It's useful for ranking posts and comments, but anything beyond that isn't helpful.
That could have been the reason there were so many bots though, every new bot account needed to karma farm in order to become useful.
Karma is largely useless. As others have said. Let an accounts posts stand for themselves. Not their general popularity. Just because someone is downvoted on the whole doesn't mean they're a troll. It just means their ideas are unpopular. But not necessarily wrong.
I'm gonna make my own instance with karma...once you hit a set limit your account is locked forever and your ip blocked for 30days...
Soon: "Karma's getting too high. Time to go a'trolling!"
You're banned after you get 300 positive votes, irrespective of how many negatives you have. Easy.
In the board game "Gloomhaven", you pick a character class until you achieve your characters assigned personal quest, at which point that character is retired, a new class is unlocked and you get to pick a new character. Starting a new character is sometimes tough if you were attached to the other class abilities and enjoyed the current team synergy, but the rotation is a key part of the game.
So like, that, but reddit-style
I think that karma is an obstacle to free thought. People prefer to remain silent instead of expressing their opposing opinions while declaring ideas that are more in line with the prevailing opinion of the community than their own in order to gain karma.
Yup this is exactly why people like it. Nobody disagrees and when they do, you just downvote them to hell.
I think it's primitive.
You guys are forgetting about spam accounts, toxic individuals, trolls, etc. I think they need to take into account karma but just not show it.
How? You can't see the difference between a troll and anyone who has an opinion that is different from the norm just by looking at downvotes. This just builds echo chambers.
Can someone explain how Jerboa up/downvotes aren't karma? I don't quite understand how karma isn't already a thing here.
Jerboa doesn't have anything to do with it, it is the app you use to access the fediverse/lemmy.
Lemmy has upvotes, downvotes and the tally of those two. Karma is a step further; on reddit, every user has a total tally (Karma) as well, where all up/downvotes of every comment and post are added together as a "score" for the user. So people post popular stuff to get upvotes and thus have a higher score (which some subreddits required to post).
Ah I see, so here, any 'karma' that is accrued is essentially just local to the thread and used to rank and sort comments therein.
I have never been sure what the point of caring about karma is. Pretty much it only gives a rough idea of how long an account has been open and how active it's been. 5, 50,000, 500,000? 5 Million? Who cares. It's not like you can do anything with it besides see the number change. I never have really seen anyone comparing karma or caring about other people's scores.
The only real thing it did was set a way for subs to disallow posting by new/troll accounts. There could easily be a way for lemmy to calculate a sum of votes on someone's most recent posts if people thought that was a useful or desired feature.
You know something? Until you mentioned it with this thread, I hadn't even noticed that karma wasn't a thing here. That is how useless the karma system is.
I say let the community mostly manage itself through the voting, so the mods can only step in for the really bad stuff.
Karma sucks, i nuked my reddit accounts every 6 months to stop myself getting hooked on it
Maybe I'm missing something, but what was Karma more than upvotes minus downvotes?
I also hope awards are never added. Reddit had sooooo many and it was really annoying in the end with all the flashy, distracting βawardsβ on the comment sections.
If karma is added here i feel i would have to abandon Lemmy, ive been (arguably) doing a good thing promoting artists over on Digital Art, ive already been accused of being a bot, which is fine, last thing i need is for people to assume im only doing it for karma too.
Hear hear π Donβt post for the glory.
The content youβre putting into the fediverse should be for everyone. You no longer own it.
If someone wants karma they could host a modified instance where every post gets thousands of upvotes for free. Other instances can't really verify whether that's accurate.
Make a meme instance. Where every downvote AND upvote adds points whether its good or bad. Simply have the points called "sandwiches." Don't release it until next year on April fools.
Have a sandwich
I'm sorry to tell you that an equivalent of Karma existed from the very beginning (though rather than being Upvotes minus Downvotes, it was Boosts minus Downvotes until a few days ago due to a bug). It's called Reputation and you can see it by viewing someone's profile in kbin. At the time of writing this, your Reputation points seem to be at 443. Reputation isn't being used for anything though, and while it can technically be tracked by anyone, lemmy hides that information so far.
[In fact, you can see who gave up- or downvotes to something and you can also see what someone up- or downvoted (or boosted, but that's a given, since boosting is equivalent to retweeting). This information is out there for anyone to access who spins up their own instance due to how federation works, so the developer of kbin decided to make it public so people are at least aware of this fact.]
I'll play devil's advocate: one benefit I could see to Reddit's karma system is that it can quickly filter out spam or alt accounts from more serious communities.
The first thing all spambots on reddit does now is repost comments in sports subreddits to build up karma, so it really doesn't help much.
Account age or number of posts could serve the same function. (Not perfectly, but neither does karma.)
I think the fact you said you don't care about moderation issues kind of shows the disconnect. On reddit, karma was a crucial way to moderate. I think something similar is a good idea for federated replacements.
That's also part of why votes need to be public, because how else would you know an instance wasn't inflating it's numbers. And the total number of votes would always need to at least be accessible on the backend to order properly. We can't just get rid of these parts and still keep core functionality working. Sure this can be hidden from the user, but it's not feasible to throw out.
Edit: I want to clarify that I'm open to suggestions. Please respond with how you think the system could avoid abuse and keep post ordering without a way of auditing/accounting for votes. I haven't been able to think of one personally.
The Reddthat instance that I'm on also has disabled down voting which I'm also all for. On Reddit, down voting very often became a tool for vocalizing what you disagreed with rather than a low effort or inappropriate post.
I am MAJORLY against disabling downvoting. This results in VERY toxic comments and content being pushed to the front and click bating content, which is what was witnessed on YouTube and Facebook, and is still a major problem. This is because youtube and other sites measure popularity of content not just by upvotes but by interaction. If you click on and/or comment on something, that's interaction. Youtube does not care about the quality of content and comments, so long as it is interacted with and shared. This means that inflammatory comments and content and click bate get lots of angry comments and rage clicks and click bait gets clicked because it's click bait and it registers and popular content that will generate lots of interaction so it gets pushed to the forefront. On reddit this kind of content gets largely weeded out by a quality check, downvotes. While no system is perfect, this allows the community to say "no, ok, just because I clicked on this and maybe even left a comment, this is NOT good content, and should not be shared with others." It also is a natural scam and spam filter that allows the community to quickly shoot down anything that is obviously spam.
Youtube comments were extremely toxic for this exact reason for a long time after the change. They had to implement a lot of changes to help reduce that toxicity, and probably went back to considering the downvotes despite not showing the count.
Canβt say I agree. I miss karma. Not because I want it, because I donβt care. But that imaginary internet point sure drives a lot of content - and even repeat content has a purpose to drive platform growth. I had like 1,000 subs and FREQUENTLY saw something for the first time that the tHiS iS a RePoSt people came out of the woodwork for.
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