this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2023
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Larion Studios forum stores your passwords in unhashed plaintext. Don't use a password there that you've used anywhere else.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Hello, c/Games mod here.

This post has been reviewed as valid by the mod team

For everyone infosec culture, hashing and salting password consist in using one-way mathematical functions to encrypt passwords. It is a very commonly used security practice to make it more difficult for an attacker that was able to steal a database to obtain the password. As the website is unable to decrypt said password (thank to the one way mathematical function), the only way to send you back your password in this manner is to have it unhashed and unsalted in his database.

But

In the current case, this is a registration email, which may have been sent before the initial hashing and salting. In this case we cannot say for sure if Larion Studios indeed have unhashed and unsalted password in his database.

[–] [email protected] 159 points 10 months ago (19 children)

That doesn't really mean that they store it in plain text. They sent it to you after you finished creating your account, and it's likely that the password was just in plain text during the registration. The question still remains whether they store their outgoing emails (in which case yes, your password would still be stored in plain text on their end, not in the database though).

[–] [email protected] 107 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (8 children)

Your guess is confirmed here.

There are plans to update the forum, including for better security (the main issue with changing the forum software is concern over reliably migrating all of the existing content). After emailing (admittedly not current best practice), the passwords are hashed and only the hash is stored.

...and later...

The forum has been updated to https, and passwords are no longer being sent by email.

Which raises the question of how old OP's screen shot is.

Also, no, the password would not necessarily still be stored in plain text on their end. The cleartext password used in that email might be only in memory, and discarded after sending the message. Depends on how the UBB forum software implemented it and how Larian's mail servers are set up.

EDIT: I just verified that this behavior has resurfaced since it was originally fixed. OP would do well to responsibly report it, rather than stirring up drama over a web forum account.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago

I actually think this is the case. I could be completely wrong but I swear I saw the same question like 6 years ago in another forum software that looks exactly like this one lol. And people compalined about it storing plain text, but the response when asking the forum people was that it was only during that password creation, it's not actually stored.

I don't know if it's crazy for me to think it's the same forum from that many years ago, still doing the same thing and getting the same question.

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[–] [email protected] 92 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Don’t use a password ~~there~~ that you’ve used anywhere else

Just get a password manager already

[–] [email protected] 74 points 10 months ago (7 children)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I want to suggest 1Password even though it’s not free (I used bitwarden for many years though). It has its own SSH agent which is a dream.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (11 children)

I just wanted to drop a reminder that both LastPass and Norton LifeLock have been hacked within the past year alone.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 10 months ago

KeePass is a thing that exists and is fantastic.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I just want to drop a reminder (to you specifically) that you don't have to use a cloud-based password manager. Roll your own.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Can I discourage rolling your own password manager (like using a text doc or spreadsheet) and instead recommend what you hopefully meant, self-hosting your own password manager?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I don't know what you're trying to say. I think it was safe to assume Salty probably meant the local-based keepass or something like that?

I wouldn't have immediately gone to text doc or spreadsheet. those aren't password managers.

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[–] [email protected] 65 points 10 months ago (39 children)

That's very unlikely. It's running UBB Threads, which, from what I can tell, has an auth subsystem, which au minimum would do hashing. If it's providing you with a default at sign-up, that's different and is what appears to be a configurable setting.

If it is completely generated for you, here's what probably happening:

  1. User creation module runs a password generator and stores this and the username in memory as string variables.
  2. User creation module calls back to storage module to store new user data in db, including the value of the generated password var.
  3. Either the storage module or another middleware module hashes the password while preparing to store.
  4. Storage module reports success to user creation.
  5. User creation module prints the vars to the welcome template and unloads them from memory.

TL;DR as this is running on a long-established commercial php forum package, with DB storage, it is incredibly unlikely that the password is stored in the DB as plaintext. At most it is likely stored in memory during creation. I cannot confirm, however, as it is not FOSS.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (19 children)

no, they probably dont.
they just send it to your email upon registration, which is kinda a bad idea, but they are probably storing passwords hashed afterwards.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (5 children)

...and if they keep the emails they send out archived (which would be reasonable), they also have it stored in plaintext there.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (2 children)

So it's in plaintext in their email system

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I've literally never had a service provider email me my own password ever. Maybe a OTP, but never my actual password. And especially not in plaintext.

What would be the necessity behind emailing someone their own password? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a password? Email isn't secure.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I find that very hard to believe. While it is less common nowadays, many, if not most, mailing list and forum software sent passwords in plaintext in emails.

A lot of cottage industry web apps also did the same.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"Kinda a bad idea?" This is fucking insane.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

this is still a terrible idea. the system should never know the plaintext password.

logs capture a lot even automated emails. i don't see a single reason to send the user their plaintext password and many reasons why they shouldn't

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 10 months ago (13 children)

You can also tell if a site does this when they have seemingly arbitrary restrictions on passwords that are actually database text field restrictions.

Especially if they have a maximum password length. The maximum password length should be just the maximum length the server will accept, because it should be hashed to a constant length before going into the database.

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Sending your password right after you created it might not be best practice, but it doesn't mean it's stored unhashed in the database. It looks like they're using a third party forum software, so it should be pretty straightforward to figure out whether they do or not.

Looks like they address it here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=669268#Post669268

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

it should be pretty straightforward to figure out whether they do or not

Not really since it's closed-source: https://www.ubbcentral.com/

But they seem to have been in business since 1997, so I highly doubt that they'd fuck up the "never store passwords in plain text" rule.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, I was looking it up, and when I saw they've been selling this forum software since 1997 I was less confident about passwords being hashed. They address it in their forums and they're making it clear that the passwords are actually hashed, and they're looking at migrating to other solutions regardless.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Set your password to an EICAR test string and see what else you can brick on their site.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (8 children)

While sending your password in plaintext over email is very much a bad idea and a very bad practice, it doesn't mean they store your password in their database as plaintext.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Encrypted passwords are still an unacceptable way to store passwords. They should be hashed.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

(and salted before hashing.)

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

And marinated in butter milk.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Would you accept "in a way that can be reversed"?

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (30 children)

It's 2023, I really hope people are not using the same password in multiple places. Password managers solved this problem a decade ago. Use one, with multi factor auth on important sites like email.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

There are people who purposely forget their passwords, so they use the "forgot my password" link every time they need to login.

Hard to hack them.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago

For those who haven't made accounts yet, you don't actually have to make an account to play Larian Studios games.

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