this post was submitted on 31 Mar 2025
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    The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.

    And yet... linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as "not growing the userbase"

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    [–] [email protected] 130 points 1 week ago (14 children)

    RTFM is not a working formula. Because most people skip reading the manual for one simple reason, the manual is hard to read.

    I remember my early arch days when asking a question about an issue I'm having was always met with a wikipage I already read but did not understand.

    Rather than pushing for a magic manual, the best is to provide sane default or point to tutorials.

    [–] [email protected] 86 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    The best is when people tell you to RTFM and the information you need just straight up isn't there.

    [–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    just google it and the google is just a reddit post that says [deleted]

    [–] [email protected] 29 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    Or "if you're having trouble there is no manual, FAQ, or wiki, just join our discord troubleshooting channel" vomit

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    [–] [email protected] 28 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Those cases where the users didn't WTFM

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    [–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago

    Plus I don't want to spend 30 minutes to wade through pages of documentation for a 5-word command that makes my speakers work.

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    [–] heavy 84 points 1 week ago (9 children)

    I mean, people are gonna bite my head off for this, but most non technical folks are turned off by someone calling them stupid... That's what "RTFM" sounds like. I think there needs to be a culture change to drive adoption, but stuff like the Steam Deck is helping a lot.

    [–] [email protected] 46 points 1 week ago

    Even technical folks aren't huge fans of RTFM.

    If I'm doing something incredibly interesting, and I'm asking for help, I should RTFM.

    If I'm doing something routine, we can (and usually do, now), make it simple enough not to need a manual.

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    [–] [email protected] 64 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
    If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
    Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.

    [–] [email protected] 26 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

    Microsoft saw a world

    That's not what happened. They got a dominant position because IBM could not even on their IBM PCs, and were at the right place at the right time, even if DOS was actually just garbage. With the power/money from this deal, they strongmanned their position as dominant PC operating system long after that era using legal and illegal anti-competitive means.

    Microsoft still has wide unethical reach with secret and not-so-secret contracts and agreements not to allow other operating systems to gain a foothold in OEMs. And that's before you get through the sheer inertia from users that completely refuse to try something different on the grounds that they don't want to.

    Besides this, the complete apathy in Europe moving off Microsoft software is quite concerning. Companies in the US are already collaborating with fascists in an unreflected way in true capitalist fashion - as happened 90 years ago. The reaction to this in terms of OS selection by companies is to hide their head in the sand and pour concrete for good measure. This will not work indefinitely, and I feel like nobody is going to suffer consequences for being a completely willful useful idiot for what is in summation a batshit fascist regime.

    Yes, I am putting Microsoft and fascism on the same pedestal, the end stage in Microsoft bashing. The sad part with this meme is that in 2025 it's not unwarranted.

    Nobody has ever been fired for ordering ~~SAP~~ Microsoft, right?

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    [–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (16 children)

    Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.

    From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn't care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn't care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.

    Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.

    This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you're going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.

    The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.

    [–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (11 children)

    I switched to Linux mint because I don't want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won't anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I'm as happy as a clam in shit.

    An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.

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    [–] [email protected] 43 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    Windows is to Linux what McDonald's is to cooking your own food.

    [–] [email protected] 19 points 1 week ago (1 children)

    More like a restaurant that has Korean BBQ / hot pot on the menu. Most meals are completely prepared, but for some you need to do a small part yourself.

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    [–] [email protected] 42 points 1 week ago (20 children)

    I'm probably gonna get hated on for this but here's my story:

    About 3 weeks ago I bought a new gaming laptop with no OS with the intention of installing Linux myself and ditching Windows.

    I'd read a lot online about how Linux was now competitive with Windows as Linux emulators could run Windows games with a 10-15% boost in performance. I read that it was all a case of finding the right distro and that Linux is much more user friendly and compatible now. So I did a little research, made myself a ventoy boot USB with Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Pop, Garuda and Fedora to see which one I liked best.

    None of them worked properly. All of them had weird little quirks. Some I could live with, some were completely infuriating. So l did a little tinkering as I was determined not to give in. None of the distros detected my hardware properly, and so I went away found forums with similar issues and I fixed most of them. However, no matter what I tried I could not get the laptop speakers to work. No problem, I thought, I'll be either using headphones or BT to my soundbar (as that worked fine). So having given up on the speaker issue, I downloaded some games. In all of the distros they ran like shit. Sound bugs, laggy game play, some wouldn't play at all. Again, I tried tinkering with the settings, using a different version of proton, different sound drivers, different graphics settings, different commands and programs which might solve the issues. No. Each different distro threw up different issues which I spent hours and researching and experimenting. I tried a few more distros and found new issues which needed more research and more experimenting.

    Over the three weeks or so I was trying I became irritable and depressed. I'd spent a lot of money on the laptop and I was unable to use it because no matter what I tried, even with relatively low resource hungry games, they did not run well at all, and even linux itself seemed slow and unresponsive in comparison to what I was used to.

    So after hours and hours of climbing the walls and snapping at my wife and neglecting my kid, I downloaded Windows. And everything just works. There are bespoke programs for my graphics card and everything in my steam library runs beautifully with very minimal tinkering. So now I have a dual boot system, windows for games only and Linux for everything else.

    I hate that I'm still enthralled to Windows, but seriously, Linux is just not ready for mass adoption. If something doesn't work on Windows , it's usually a case of just downloading the correct driver and Windows normally knows which one you need. If something doesn't work on Linux it's a slog through paragraphs of text which all assume some basic knowledge of coding or Linux's file system or some other jargon, or watching endless YouTube videos and then still getting nowhere. As a working husband and father I just do not have the time to put into it.

    Tl;Dr - Windows is much easier than Linux. That's why everyone uses Windows.

    [–] [email protected] -1 points 6 days ago

    You sound like a Windows power user and of course linux will be harder because you are not used to it.

    I had a simmilar first months until I was used to linux. Now I find many things much more convinient in Linux.

    And yes there is hardware that works in windows but not in linux like there is hardware that wont work in macos. But over time you will only buy stuff that is compatible and you wont think about it anymore.

    Thats why I recommend dual booting at the start because sometimes you need to get shit done without trying to learn the new way and so you don't get burnt out. But if you keep at it you will start to use windows less and less.

    [–] [email protected] 42 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

    Oof. Sorry you had such a bad experience.

    Pro tip for others: It takes time for volunteers to reverse engineer new proprietary laptop hardware.

    If the laptop manufacturers aren't advertising Linux support, it's up to the community to play guess and check, to figure out what the proprietary drivers do.

    You might get lucky and pick the same exact model as a passionate reverse engineer. Or you might not.

    With old stuff, your odds are much better that someone has figured it out for you.

    For new hardware, it's still essential to pick a vendor that chooses to write and release Linux drivers.

    This will get better when truly open hardware platforms gain popularity.

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    [–] [email protected] 35 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

    Literally had a former co-worker who has taught computer science classes at universities, ran his own PC repair business, and avoids the command line like the plague. Says it feels ancient.

    If you're under 30 and read this and have been on the fence about getting good with computers... Just setup a Linux VM and play around with the terminal. You'll be leagues beyond so many active professionals it's scary.

    [–] [email protected] 15 points 1 week ago (1 children)

    It’s okay to have a preference. In my. 20+ years with Linux, I’ve coded with and for it, did low level embedded development with it, used it at home for school and entertainment, used for amateur photography, even managed a small server for a startup.

    I still would rather use a GUI, because I have not specialized in most of the tasks. It’s less powerful, but it’s just more intuitive. It’s less portable between DEs, but it’s easier. And if your only doing that once in a blue moon, it’s more than enough.

    [–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (14 children)

    It's absolutely fine to prefer a GUI. At a professional level it is not fine to not understand what is happening beneath the hood.

    Full stop.

    If you don't know how to use TCP dump, I don't want you using wireshark on my dime.

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    [–] [email protected] 28 points 1 week ago (1 children)

    Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.

    Windows used to be easy. Now, it's so obscure and locked down that only Microsoft can maintain your computer. And they maintain it for their own benefit, at your expense, with mandatory ads and lockouts.

    [–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

    I disagree about how it used to be easy. And agree with everything else.

    Ive used Windows since the 3.1 days (MSDOS as well?). Its never been "easy". You just learn the magic spells on how to fix a printer, get the right drivers installed in JUST the right way, or which hardware magically doesn't work for some reason and avoid it.

    With Linux, at least we get good logs most of the time.

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    [–] [email protected] 27 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    One thing I have noticed a lot of lately is that people just don't want to have to fucking read at all anymore and it kind of is wrecking my faith in humanity. Asking people to read isn't a big ask.

    [–] [email protected] 30 points 1 week ago

    “I feel like we are nearing the end of times. We humans are losing faith in ourselves.”

    - Hayao Miyazaki

    [–] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    It’s not just reading, people don’t want to mentally engage with things. There are people who would rather read movie reviews than go watch a movie and form their own opinion on it.

    Engaging with material will always require something of the audience. We can try to make things as accessible and easy to understand as possible, but that doesn’t “solve” the problem, it just lowers the bar. Lowering the bar isn’t bad, but it seems like the wrong strategy for the current era. I think a better strategy is attempting to foster and enthusiastic community at a local level. Get together with friends on the weekends and mess around with stuff in person, talk about it.

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    [–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

    Asking people to read isn't a big ask.

    Yes, but asking them to read a large, technical manual that's gonna put them several hours and multiple pages in for a single concept is.

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    [–] [email protected] 27 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    I recently switched to Linux after a lifetime with Windows. Last night I went to install a backup program on my media server but it couldn't see the destination drive. I downloaded a partition manager and it crashed trying to load the external drive. DDG'd the issue, but I couldn't find a clear cause/effect that applied to me. So I downloaded a different partition manager and backup program, and they worked right out of the box. Turns out the non-working apps were written for Gnome and the working apps were written for KDE, (which is my desktop environment). It was a very frustrating half hour, but it pales in comparison to the time I've spent troubleshooting (storage) driver issues in Windows. The point I'm making is, Linux isn't really that hard to learn, it's just unfamiliar and therefore scary. Getting past your fear unlocks a whole new world of wonder and possibilities! 🐧

    [–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago

    Oh yeah, Windows storage driver issues are great if you need to kill time. Nothing better than your Windows installer claiming there's no disk. Great in combination with missing touchpad drivers. But hey, at least I found out it can indeed be installed without a working mouse and that includes installing the storage driver!

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    [–] [email protected] 24 points 1 week ago (1 children)

    Make the manual super short, pretty, interactive, unobtrusive and spread it around the system contextually. Then users might “read” it.

    [–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

    Sounds like a great plan! The arch wiki is waiting for your help ❤️❤️❤️ looking forward to seeing a new take on the manuals 🥰

    [–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago

    They’re basically describing a good GUI.

    [–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago (13 children)

    Sorry, I love Linux and wish everybody was on it but no way is Windows “just as hard”. Maybe if you want to look behind the curtain and start tinkering Linux is easier but on the face of it I’d say Linux is somewhere around early Windows XP when it comes to usability for a normal person.

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    [–] [email protected] 19 points 1 week ago (1 children)

    I know some of the issue is the manuals themselves are out of date. Ive literally had to have something explained to me via the developers Discord. I hate going to a projects Discord in order to find out crucial info.

    Sometimes manuals are in 5 different places so you don't know what applies to your specific system.

    I usually try and improve the manuals when I do come across this with a quick PR, when I have time.

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    [–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    I’ve used a Mac since forever. But I started using FOSS apps. Then I created a Hackintosh, until it borked. Then I installed ZorinOS and almost didn’t need to fix the Hackintosh. I did fix it, but Zorin convinced me that Linux is legit and I’m going all in on it.

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    [–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago

    Linux isn't hard anymore because I have ChatGPT to come up with all the command lines for me. And they work 60% of the time!

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