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submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 75 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

One thing that’ll need serious consideration:

I feel like it’s inevitable that Lemmy will get an advertisement module that admins can enable. Alternative monetisation methods can also work, such as subscriptions. But users will have to realise that servers aren’t free.

If you’re an admin for a small community and are willing to carry the burden: great. If you’re hosting a community that can support itself by donations: also great. But sooner or later we’ll need some ways to make servers sustainable.

(Not a fan of advertisements and would prefer to be a paying user, but as Lemmy takes off we shouldn’t look down on admins trying to mitigate their expenses).

Edit: sorry if you saw this comment two or three times, posting can still be a bit buggy…

[-] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I will tell this nonstop, online advertisement (as a form of monetization) is pretty damn dated nowadays. You could give them literally a dollar every year and they would make more from you than serving you ads.

Unpopular opinion: I kinda feel like a reason ads are so popular nowadays is because it gives the user a way of feeling they are supporting a product/creator by doing pretty much nothing.

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[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

I'm thinking about creating my own personal instance hosted on maybe a RasPi or something, just for myself. It would cost very little (RasPi and Domain name are already laying around unused..).

It might not be the fastest, and if my internet is down then the instance won't be available (but then again I'd be the only one using it anyway).

But I'm still trying to figure out other pros/cons with that approach.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I fully support that idea. Nothing comes free and as a lemmy.world user I’m using lemmy.world resources to browse lemmy.ml pr whatever. It’s only fair that I fund this server to do it’s work in some way.

As long as we aren’t charged for getting the content itself.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

How are fediverse admins currently funding their instances?

[-] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago
[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thanks, I have another question: what kind of web hosting tier do you need in order to have the functionality needed to host an instance? I was fiddling with infinityfree and found that there are all sorts of minor functionality you need beyond just a catchy name in a domain that won't have a bad reputation to host an instance. I mean, besides electricity costs, labour and some old hardware you have lying around to use as a server, how much is that hosting expected to cost?

[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

If you wanted to self host Lemmy is very lightweight. The general consensus is you could get a cheap virtual host for $5-10/mo

That would cover yourself and a few friends. Now, if Lemmy were to really get popular your database would grow in size so youay have to get more storage later but it's overall very inexpensive to do it yourself.

That said, major instances like Lemmy.world could charge their users $1-2/mo and probably be fine (this is napkin math). Long story short nothing is free, even if it's relatively inexpensive. We need to create a community that is willing to pitch in a few cents for freedom. I don't think that's too much to ask, otherwise the ad model comes into play and the place goes to shit.

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[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Just having ads is not a problem.

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[-] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago

Not exactly. Lemmy has separated the developer role from the admin role.

From a developer role, Lemmy is going to need to figure out a way to scale up development. Two full time developers isn't going to be enough to get Lemmy to a position it can compete against Reddit or the next Reddit. Lemmy is rough around the edges and needs work; it needs to develop ways to incorporate code from others.

From an admin role, the various servers are going to need to solve major issues, including how to fund server costs. We are also seeing the fraying of the federation model as different admins have different goals for their part of Lemmy and these goals clash with each other.

There is going to be a ton of growing pains, and some of them are going to come from the fact that there isn't a CEO of Lemmy to choose which way to resolve problems.

[-] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago

From a developer role, Lemmy is going to need to figure out a way to scale up development.

No they don't. The platform is open source, so the more users they have, the more of those users will become contributors.

[-] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

Yes they do. This is why some FOSS goes to places like Apache, why there's a Python foundation, Spark has Databricks, Kafka Confluent and Trino Starburst.

The good thing about open source is that it allows everyone to contribute code to the base. The bad thing about open source is thay it allows everyone to contribute code to the base.

You need repo maintainers, developers that are constant contributor, code reviewers, people maintaining CI CD Pipelines, etc etc.

Yes it's less than having proprietary, but it's nowhere near "0".

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

But how is the organization going to handle and review all this additional code? You can't just trust someone coded something correctly without reviewing the code.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I feel like it’s inevitable that Lemmy will get an advertisement module that admins can enable. Alternative monetisation methods can also work, such as subscriptions. But users will have to realise that servers aren’t free.

If you’re an admin for a small community and are willing to carry the burden: great. If you’re hosting a community that can support itself by donations: also great. But sooner or later we’ll need some ways to make servers sustainable.

(Not a fan of advertisements and would prefer to be a paying user, but as Lemmy takes off we shouldn’t look down on admins trying to mitigate their expenses).

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[-] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago

It's called decentralized

[-] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago

You’re posting this on lemmy.world. The owner of this instance, the biggest new instance, is literally building out a business of instance hosting.

If this goes well, and his business grows, it will have chief executives.

[-] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago

But there will be other instances. If this one does something stupid, then we go to another one and miss almost nothing.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

That's a bit like saying "Yeah so we don't care what reddit does, because you can always go somewhere else"

It's the biggest instance, so it's where most of the community and content would be etc etc. Just like what happened with beehaw could happen to world as well. This is only true for a mature decentralized federated ecosystem with a lot of redundant communities so that if one goes down you can easily consume the same content from a different instence. Is that the case now? I would say no, so it's even less leader-proof.

[-] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Lemmy is perfectly fine with beehaw defederating.

There is certainly the risk of a single instance dominating. But even now there are a few significant instances and losing beehaw didn't ruin anything.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

It's definitely good, but it isn't full proof. Nothing is.

[-] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

r/boneappletea

Sorry I couldn't resist

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[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

RIght. It does depend on there being multiple major instances.

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[-] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago

CEO-Proof, but not Lazy-Instance-Owner-Proof. ahem beehaw ahem

[-] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago

Beehaw's choice was Beehaw's choice, and reading through their reasoning for it, I can understand why they'd defederate with the current influx of users seen.

And that's the point and their right- we all have the choice. If you're unhappy with a server's federatipn choices or user base, you can move to an alternative and still federate with the other servers for content.

[-] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago

But then you just use another instance. As long as it stays decentralized, it will be robust. If one instance takes over, then it's no different.

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[-] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago

Does not have CEO, yet ...

But I can solve that. From now on I will take that burden.

Refer to me as super cool Lemmy CEO

First order of business, I command you lemmings to vibe.

Stay tunned for upcoming changes !!!

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Lemmy.world might get a CEO, but it'll be different then the Lemmy software (which is open source) and it appears to be possible to migrate off of a given instance if this one gets unreasonable

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[-] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago

Not CEO-proof until user and community migration by individual is possible

[-] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago
[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

This. Even Lemmy could technically get fucked over

[-] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

This is what I like about Lemmy and the fediverse; Its not like some rich company or person could really take over Lemmy and then pull a twitter or a reddit. The only way I could see things going south is if corporations start buying popular instances and then creating terrible policies and/or mine all of the data collected in the Lemmy instance, but with Lemmy you could just move to another instance.

Right now I feel like were in the same position when Linux started out - really cool in concept but with no clear way to monetize which causes doubts for its future. It wasn't until RedHat really popularized the support for enterprises model that Linux really solidified its future; they found a way to monetize open source projects. Lemmy itself is very young and will need to have its RedHat moment, otherwise its doomed to fail -- donations are nice but are never enough.

As a side note to this - I find it funny that companies are super eager to replace people at the bottom with AI when in my mind it would be easier to replace a CEO with AI to ingest company data and make cost-cutting decisions, or to be able to look at the market and determine what a company should be doing in order to compete. CEO positions are the most expensive for a company so eliminating it with a machine would save investors TONS of money. It would never need meetings, just take in input of whats going on in the company and externally in its competing market.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

We'll need someone to input that data, I guess we'll need to create a new position for that.

I shall be the CAIIO (chief AI input officer) and may salary will only be $150m.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Hey that's a lot of work for one dude. I'll be your associate. I shall be the ACAIIO and my salary is twice as much as yours because of the longer title

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[-] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago
[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Well I'm not so sure about that. Just give it time, someone will find a way to monetize it. People are creative.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

The problem isn’t necessarily people monetizing a platform, it’s forcing everyone to participate in the monetization whether they want to or not.

If there was a hypothetical Lemmy instance that was ad-supported or even subscription-based, that would be fine. Because we always have the choice to go to a different instance.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Every platform/service/product that is owned by a single company is eventually going to breakdown and turn into the worst form of itself. Companies are driven by this fiscal quarter being better than the last and it is inevitable that eventually quality has to go out the window to increase profits. The only sure-fire way to "reset" quality or force the company to ensure quality is to not monetarily support them. But with the internet, that is very difficult to achieve with having so few platforms that connect us all owned by companies. The only answer on keeping the internet a quality space for socialization and connecting with each other, is decentralization.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So who actually owns the server this instance runs on? Doesn't it just mean they do whatever they want? So confused

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

There are a ton of Lemmy instances that all communicate with each other and each instance is ran on hardware by different owners. So if one instance goes to shit your account will still work on all the other ones.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

So if one instance goes to shit your account will still work on all the other ones.

My understanding is that (at present anyway) since accounts are not federated, your account on that "gone to shit" instance will be gone. Your content will still be on many federated instances, but not your account. That would be lost.

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[-] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

NoCEOShitification

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

And with the exodus of users from Reddit to Lemmy which created a significant base of decentralised online community, we just witnessed history where human beings achieved the next level of freedom of expression free from manipulation by a handful of powerful individuals

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[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

I'd say "sort of." Lemmy as a software is under a classic benevolent dictator situation. It's open source but as long as the lead devs remain two people we are kind of at their whim. Yeah someone could fork it but it's the same issue of you're now at the whim of that person keeping their fork up to date and what they want to do. Until they kind of allow more people having a say on the main repo it's up in the air what happens truly.

We've seen this same situation with Emby to Jellyfin. Where the open source project gets so good it goes close source, becomes a company and leaves everyone scrambling to get people to help work on the last bit of open source code. Meanwhile Emby just used their huge install base to upsell people. Jellyfin is still trying to get full parity with Emby despite Jellyfin having thousands of contributors and being open source. It's hard to keep up with well funded innovation compared to volunteer work.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I jumped ship from Emby to Jellyfin a long time ago. Just looked at their site now: "Purchase Emby Premiere and receive additional bonus features such as Cover Art, Mobile Sync, Cloud Sync, and free Android apps." Pretty sure you get all that in Jellyfin already.

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[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

When we think CEO we need to think “shareholders.” Including potential shareholders as in Reddit’s case. I think sometimes we are so focused on our feelings about a “big boss” that we forget the CEO is merely an avatar for the investor point of view in a business. They answer to the board of directors who represent or are even made up of shareholders, and they are usually paid in such a way to motivate shareholder benefits, like with stock instead of a high salary.

And when we think “shareholders” we need to think “loan money.” That’s how you get to be a shareholder. You plunk down some cash to float the business.

Therefore, to really be CEO-proof, an entity needs to be fiscally independent and never need an advance of cash to keep going. It must be entirely bootstrapped, paid-as-you-go, with no one standing to gain a whole bunch or lose a whole bunch by its failure or sale. That’s kind of a lot of needles to thread when you’re building something big. It can be done but we have to know what game we’re actually playing and not get distracted by “fuck The Man” sentiments. This is about cash.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Literally this… what is happening in Reddit is the CEO attending the needs of the shareholder via the board… companies aren't the "sisters of charity". They are where they are for profit and at the very least they need to have a cash flow that allow them to pay employees and bills. There are some B Corps out there, but most of the companies are there to make the big buck. In the case of Reddit we users are just a product that they try to keep to make the company profitable selling ads or whatever. If you want a Reddit-kind-of platform user-centric we need to pay for it and become the customers instead the product.

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[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Unspezzable.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

More generally speaking, Lemmy (and other federated services) are board-proof. CEOs are not typically the actual culprit, they are the executors of the wishes of the board. Often times they have significant power, especially if they are also member of the board or a significant owner, but not always.

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this post was submitted on 18 Jun 2023
621 points (99.1% liked)

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