this post was submitted on 08 Mar 2024
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How do you differentiate purposeful manipulation vs it being a natural effect of Western social media? I stopped using Facebook and Twitter because it was obviously toxic and affecting my mental health. I use TikTok a fair amount and don't find it nearly as bad.
It's also possible that there's manipulation in the other direction. In their own app they could be artificially increasing positive content while allowing the natural social media toxicity and ragebait to dominate in other areas.
My personal opinion is that TikTok is a way that peer to peer information and news travels very quickly in a way that they can't control, and they don't like that. As with all things, they want to keep us isolated.
Well, Tiktok is owned by a Chinese company. Every major Chinese company, especially ones that operate outside of China, have CCP offices within the company. The "rights" that individuals and companies have in China are at best a facade. What the CCP says to do is what happens.
The major difference is tested by looking at how the algorithm promotes or suppresses certain topics. Tiktok has a Chinese counterpart called Douyin (which IIRC is the "original" Tiktok) that's only available to people in China. The findings point to more positive content being promoted on Douyin and negative content on Tiktok.
What's also noticed is that Douyin heavily promotes anti-west and specifically anti-American propaganda. And promotes pro-China and pro-CCP stuff, such as "China has solved homelessness and homelessness doesn't exist there" and "China has solved poverty". The second one is technically true on paper, because they recently reduced the poverty threshold to $600 a year.
On Tiktok huge pro-CCP campaigns have been discovered and that content is constantly being pushed. They use Western shills mostly and the propaganda aspect is cleverly veiled.
In the context of Tiktok, that doesn't make sense. And what's even more ironic is that Tiktok is Chinese owned, and people in China have zero access to the outside world. People are going to jail or even disappeared now for simply using a VPN. News coming out of China is almost completely censored. China has basically become North Korea with more money. And they have direct control over the content on the most widely used social media platform in the West.
I'm not here to be pro-china, and I definitely believe that they're putting those things in douyin. I'm just not convinced they're purposefully putting negative things in TikTok purposefully to harm mental health.
This is anecdotal and my personal experience, but I haven't noticed any pro-ccp things on my personal algorithm. What I do notice is anti-US and anti-capitalist content by Americans. Whether or not they are shills, I can't say for sure, but it feels like it would border on conspiracy theory thinking to suggest that many of them are.
To clarify the isolation comment, I mean that TikTok is a place where community building and the spreading of ideas or news (not necessarily good or bad ideas/news) spreads rapidly, especially among young people, in a way the people who run traditional media can't control. Taking away this tool makes us more reliant on forms of media that they do control.
This is true for many platforms like Reddit, Lemmy, Mastadon, etc., including ones that no longer exist like Vine. There have always been pages on the internet to share censored free content, and there likely will always be. The issue with Tiktok being a "way to spread news" is that most of the content is just "hearsay" without being verifiable. And that means false information spreads quickly and easily on Tiktok. There's a reason most of the flat earthers have flocked to Tiktok lately.
Additionally, Tiktok is terrible for searchability. The platform isn't designed to work that way. It's designed to just doom scroll and you see what the platform tells you to see. The only other time you see something else is if someone shares a video. The random nature of the next video is where the issue lies, and considering it's a CCP controlled company that controls the algorithm that picks the next video, I wouldn't trust it with a video of watching paint dry.
There have been many studies demonstrating that the TikTok algorithm is hugely problematic.
I agree with you. The difference between the other platforms mentioned and TikTok is that TikTok is where the action is right now, so it's the target. The unverified hearsay problem is certainly there, but I don't think it's inherent to TikTok more than any other platform. No matter the platform, rage and engagement are the most important things so the algorithms will always reward them. Even YouTube's algorithm has been highly criticized for funneling people down extremist pipelines.
The TikTok algorithm is incredibly efficient at locking people, especially young people, into scrolling forever. That's bad. However that same criticism has been made against more traditional social media platforms too. Twitter especially has a similar although less effective problem.
Besides vague gesturing at China, I don't see any problem that TikTok has that isn't already present in other social media platforms. If we want to go after all of them, I'd 100% be for it, but this legislation is too targeted and creates a dangerous precedent imo.
100% agree on the searchability. It's totally unusable.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tiktok-pushes-potentially-harmful-content-to-users-as-often-as-every-39-seconds-study/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-20/tiktok-effects-on-mental-health-in-focus-after-teen-suicide
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/tiktok-risks-pushing-children-towards-harmful-content/
The issue is measurable.
I'll agree with you up to a point. The difference here is the interests of the company. The money angle is easy to understand and figure out, because there's no reason to hide that.
It's less obvious or easy when the intention is to influence people away from a societal or political ideation. So many people hand-wave away the fact that Bytedance is a Chinese company. The reason is that most people think "company" like Google or Microsoft in a democratic country, where access to data has (mostly) a lot of red tape and legal protections.
Now I'm sure anyone reading that would laugh and say "have you heard of Snowden?" which is absolutely a fair and correct thing to say. So with that in mind, Western companies still have a ton of autonomy and legal protections from their governments when compared to China. In China a "company" like Bytedance or Baidu are more like "corporate offices" for the CCP.
So Tiktok is effectively owned by the CCP, and it's the Chinese Communist Party that's coding the algorithm on Tiktok. There's no other way to approach it.
No, it's not vague gesturing. This is 100% a demonstrable issue. The I-Soon leaks demonstrate that. China is absolutely an adversarial country to places like the US, Canada, and Europe. The fact that they have covert Chinese police stations in the US and Canada to track and intimidate Chinese citizens in these countries is being alarming.
It baffles me that people even want to use Tiktok on the fact that it's CCP owned in the first place.
https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1765823031966904671
Thank you for those resources, they are pretty compelling, especially the Twitter thread, which if true, is good evidence that China has used the data to target specific individuals. That's a problem. And the individual bit is important because I'm unpersuaded by "mass data collection" arguments because a) everyone is doing that and no one seems to care and b) basically the same data is freely purchasable.
The harms associated with the first few links are definitely real, but I would certainly be interested in an apples to apples comparison to other platforms, especially YouTube.
But I think it's also important to recognize that there is a lot of good that comes from TikTok as well. If I can get personal here, I've moved away from family and friends to work a demanding job, and I've found some sense of community on TikTok with people who are into the same hobbies as I am, which I've had difficulty finding IRL. It has also given voice and community to [certain groups of] marginalized people, and, (for better or for worse) is a major platform by which creators can generate revenue by which a lot of them survive.
Obviously a lot of that COULD and SHOULD be hosted on a different platform without all these issues, but right now they are not, so we need to make sure not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I pointed it out in other comments, but I feel as if the current bill provides too much power to the executive to unilaterally ban foreign outlets from functioning in the US. I'm not a nutty free speech absolutist or anything, but I think anything that has the potential to shut out alternative perspectives like that takes us closer to Chinese style censorship, not farther away.
Ironically, I wonder if a better solution is mandatory integration of positive content algorithms like it seems like douyin has. But then the question is, who picks what's positive? Is religion positive? Patriotism? Depends who you ask.
All in all, I think social media of all kinds has been basically the worst thing to happen to the world in my lifetime, but I think that that the cat is out of the bag on it and we're just pretty fucked.
Thank you for the honest and level conversation here, I do appreciate it.
Thanks for sharing that perspective.
Btw, everyone zones in on the "ban Tiktok" narrative, whereas the proposed bill actually says that Tiktok would need to be sold to another company not in China. That's the bill's first choice, but if that's not possible, THEN ban Tiktok.