this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2023
16 points (62.5% liked)
Canada
7230 readers
591 users here now
What's going on Canada?
Communities
π Meta
πΊοΈ Provinces / Territories
- Alberta
- British Columbia
- Manitoba
- New Brunswick
- Newfoundland and Labrador
- Northwest Territories
- Nova Scotia
- Nunavut
- Ontario
- Prince Edward Island
- Quebec
- Saskatchewan
- Yukon
ποΈ Cities / Local Communities
- Calgary (AB)
- Edmonton (AB)
- Greater Sudbury (ON)
- Halifax (NS)
- Hamilton (ON)
- Kootenays (BC)
- London (ON)
- Mississauga (ON)
- Montreal (QC)
- Nanaimo (BC)
- Oceanside (BC)
- Ottawa (ON)
- Port Alberni (BC)
- Regina (SK)
- Saskatoon (SK)
- Thunder Bay (ON)
- Toronto (ON)
- Vancouver (BC)
- Vancouver Island (BC)
- Victoria (BC)
- Waterloo (ON)
- Winnipeg (MB)
π Sports
Hockey
- List of All Teams: Post on /c/hockey
- General Community: /c/Hockey
- Calgary Flames
- Edmonton Oilers
- MontrΓ©al Canadiens
- Ottawa Senators
- Toronto Maple Leafs
- Vancouver Canucks
- Winnipeg Jets
Football (NFL)
- List of All Teams:
unknown
Football (CFL)
- List of All Teams:
unknown
Baseball
- List of All Teams:
unknown - Toronto Blue Jays
Basketball
- List of All Teams:
unknown - Toronto Raptors
Soccer
- List of All Teams:
unknown - General Community: /c/CanadaSoccer
- Toronto FC
π» Universities
π΅ Finance / Shopping
- Personal Finance Canada
- BAPCSalesCanada
- Canadian Investor
- Buy Canadian
- Quebec Finance
- Churning Canada
π£οΈ Politics
- Canada Politics
- General:
- By Province:
π Social and Culture
Rules
Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca also apply here. See the sidebar on the homepage:
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
That was called appeasement, and was tried. It helped lead to WW2.
There should always be a forum to talk. However, words must be backed by a big enough stick, and the resolve to use it. Otherwise those who respect the use of words will just be flattened by those who are happy to abuse the situation. Finding the balance of this is the biggest challenge we have as a species.
Assuming you are referring to Russia Vs Ukraine right now. Russia was using and abusing words, with no intent to match them with actions. If they truly wanted to come back to the table, they would be welcomed. The catch is, it would have to be backed with actions. Pull back to the original borders, and present the evidence they supposedly have of issues in Ukraine to the international community. Right now they appear to just be bullies, and are being treated as such.
It's a bit of a stretch to compare the lead up to WW2 to modern day politics. Back then news and information took days and weeks to reach people and everyone had a hard time figuring what was going on and leaders on any side could simultaneously use that fact to bend and break the truth.
It's a bit harder to hide true intentions of what any side is attempting to do in an age of instant communication.
For the record, I have no love for Russia and it's authoritarian regime ... nor do I appreciate America and its war machine.
Reverse the situation in Ukraine and Russia and place Russian military forces in Mexico to 'contain' America .... what do you think the reaction would be?
Everyone loves this argument but no one ever likes to acknowledge the double standard.
What exactly do you think the US is doing that's the equivalent of Russia having troops in Mexico? Hell if I can figure it out.
You sure very much describing appeasement. Russian officials have repeatedly let slip their desire to go further into Europe. There is really no difference.
And I'm someone more sympathetic than most to Russia's, "we had to do it," argument.
I mean, and Cuba is also a thing, although I guess the US did do something like Crimea 2014 back in the 60's.
If America has no hand in Ukraine .... how is Ukraine able to sustain its war with Russia?
It's almost become common knowledge to everyone now at this point ... Ukraine is a proxy war between the US and Russia.
A good way of understanding that is ... if the US were today to just withdraw its funding and supplies in Ukraine, how would Ukraine fair? If you removed all the military spending in Ukraine over the past ten years, how do you think history would have played out?
In terms of Russian expansionism ... how is it that they haven't changed their borders over the past 20 years, especially when they are right next to a few weak nations on their southern border.
The only nation I've ever read about that has spread and expanded their military and political influence worldwide to either occupy, influence or outright control foreign nations is the United States.
Wow, now you're showing either total obliviousness, or you are actually a full on believer of Russian propaganda.
Two obvious counterexamples: invasion of Georgian territories, 2008; Russian invasion of Ukrainian territories, 2014.
The US has launched military actions in a number of places, yes. They have never absorbed those places into the US. One can debate the legitimacy of those US actions, and in Canada we did debate them, electing not to join the US in Iraq, for example. But the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of those US actions does not affect the legitimatacy of Russian actions. The US hasn't invaded Canada or Mexico for the purpose of expanding their borders. (Okay, a century or more ago...)
Whataboutism sucks. But at least be correct when using it as your argument.
Russia, and the Soviet Union has barely ever expanded beyond Eurasia ... the United States is the only country in history besides the British Empire that has exercised so much control, influence and violence in the world. Sure the soviets and communists set up in places like Cuba, African countries and southeast Asia ... but they never built and established lasting military bases all over the world. And if you read the history, most of the supposed communists expansions turned out to be western espionage as a pretext to install their military and their corporations to exert their own control on the world.
US Interventions (for the past 33 years .... the list is much longer the further you go back)
https://archive.globalpolicy.org/us-westward-expansion/26024-us-interventions.html
1990-1991 Iraq Major military operation, including naval blockade, air strikes; large number of troops attack Iraqi forces in occupied Kuwait.
1991-2003 Iraq Control of Iraqi airspace in north and south of the country with periodic attacks on air and ground targets.
1991 Haiti CIA-backed military coup ousts President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.
1992-1994 Somalia Special operations forces intervene.
1992-1994 Yugoslavia Major role in NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
1993-1995 Bosnia Active military involvement with air and ground forces.
1994-1996 Haiti Troops depose military rulers and restore President Jean-Bertrand Aristide to office.
1995 Croatia Krajina Serb airfields attacked.
1996-1997 Zaire (Congo) Marines involved in operations in eastern region of the country.
1997 Liberia Troops deployed.
1998 Sudan Air strikes destroy country's major pharmaceutical plant.
1998 Afghanistan Attack on targets in the country.
1998 Iraq Four days of intensive air and missile strikes.
1999 Yugoslavia Major involvement in NATO air strikes.
2001 Macedonia NATO troops shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels.
2001 Afghanistan Air attacks and ground operations oust Taliban government and install a new regime.
2003 Iraq Invasion with large ground, air and naval forces ousts government of Saddam Hussein and establishes new government.
2003-present Iraq Occupation force of 150,000 troops in protracted counter-insurgency war
2004 Haiti Marines land. CIA-backed forces overthrow President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.
Appeasement allowed the 3rd Reich to build the momentum it did. It was a nice idea, but failed when faced with actors who don't act in good faith. Russian backed trolls online have be desperately pushing the "we should sit down and talk" card, without the accompanying "give back what Russia stole" part.
If America is launching an invasion of Mexico, without the concerted backing of the rest of the world, then it's the right action to take. If someone breaks their fist on the shield you used to cover someone's face, that's on them. A policing action should be multinational, with clear, stated goals. Not 1 country imposing its views on its neighbour by force.
I'm also of the mindset that boots should be on the ground in Israel and Palestine, with orders to help de-escalate both sides. Unfortunately, that's never going to happen in a useful way. It would have to be a coalition including significant Islamic elements to not immediately explode. The west has been stirring the pot FAR too much over the last 70 years for most Islamic countries to trust us now.
I fully agree, however, that the American military machine needs to be cooled WAY down. It's become a beast set on devouring its host, along with everything else it can get its claws on. I've no idea how that could be achieved though.
In an age of mass communication, instant connection, accumulated knowledge, historic experience and legions of academics and capable professionals and political leaders .... there should be more options to deal with regional conflicts other than spending billions of dollars on the latest technologies designed to kill people.
If we aren't capable of preventing or solving problems without war and death ... then we (everyone on all sides) are no better than our ancestors thousands of years ago.
The answer shouldn't be trying to figure out how to kill as many people as possible to settle differences.
I'll repeat it again ... if billions are spent on war, war is inevitable ... if billions are spent on peace, peace can occur.
The fundamental truth hasn't changed. While all measures should be taken to avoid war, those measures ultimately rest on the ability to wage that war.
In martial arts terms. The goal is to avoid fighting. You de-escalate, and disengage where possible. However, when someone is attacked, you need to know how to step in and defend them. Further, you need to know how to counter and neutralise the threat. Those same tools can be misused to do great harm, but many of the methods for avoiding conflict rely on being able to counter the threat, if the opponent drops the veneer of civility.
Within countries, this dilemma was solved by giving a monopoly on force to the government (for good or bad). On the international stage, there is no higher power to appeal to. No police, or father figure to step in. We have to learn to play nice, including when a sibling wants to set fire to the playpen. We must, however be careful not to burn the playpen down ourselves.
One of the biggest problem in our modern is that ... if we stick to your analogy ... is that we allow these children to get their hands on hand guns, machine guns and flame throwers. And the only response they understand is that if they want something or start a fight with another sibling, their only response is to start shooting at people or set them on fire.
We live in a world where we have allowed a military industrial complex to dictate how we are are deal with differences, disagreements and debate by just figuring out how to kill people in order to settle these conflicts. Billions are spent on military solutions while only millions are spent on peaceful resolution or deescalation ... and if this comment thread is any indication, all we seem to understand is the need to fight, kill and destroy rather than in debating solutions to not do those things.
In martial arts, if all you teach to your students is to fight whenever there is conflict, hit whenever there is disagreement and strike whenever there are differences ... is it any wonder that all we ever do is fight and kill?
My point is there is nuance to the question. We have a dilemma. We need the very tools of oppression to resist the oppression. However, if we arm ourselves with them, we have the temptation of using them to oppress others, to our benefit.
Ukraine gave up its tools. It gave up its nukes, in exchange for an agreement that Russia wouldn't attack it, and the rest of the world would back them, if Russia broke that agreement.
What we need is a balance. The world, as a whole must be able to suppress a violent state. At the same time, no one state should have the power to suppress a large proportion of other states. This would allow for policing action, but avoid the use of force for selfish reasons. Right now, America has the biggest stick. And it uses it, and its threat regularly. However, if it just gave up that stick, others would take advantage of the power vacuum. Collectively, we need a big enough stick that no-one can threaten the collective. At the same time, individual members shouldn't have too much power.
Ironically, this is playing out in Ukraine. While America is sending significant resources, it is not the only one doing so. Abandoning Ukraine would be a dereliction of our agreement to back them. It would also embolden others to act, since Russia got their way.
If you've not ran across them, look up Nash Equilibriums. It's what is in play, and why simple fixes just won't work
This sounds like the same logic that led up to World War One
Building a complex series of alliances like a series of dominoes and if one were to be knocked over, would set off a chain reaction.
The building of ever bigger militaries and armaments just builds bigger and bigger dominoes ready to fall over.
Every time I debate this topic, the most vocal arguments are the ones that want more war, more military and more fighting ... and then become confused and wonder why there is so much fighting all the time.
You seem to think it's an either or question. I'm strongly anti war. At the same time, I know that pacifism is almost as bad.
As I said, look up Nash Equilibriums. The goal should be that the Nash Equilibrium is negotiation. If any one country or sub over arms, then the Nash shifts and war becomes an inevitability. In the Nash based model, disarming is equivalent to increasing the armament of the other countries. A country can over arm without changing its level of military spending etc.
The goal is a stable "steady state". No-one gains by arming up, but everyone can react effectively to someone doing it, without runaway escalation.
And there you go glad you got there we are no better then our ancestors. We like to think we are but we are not.