this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2023
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Reddit Migration

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### About Community Tracking and helping #redditmigration to Kbin and the Fediverse. Say hello to the decentralized and open future. To see latest reeddit blackout info, see here: https://reddark.untone.uk/

founded 1 year ago
 

It’s one thing to have differing views, but I’ve seen enough attempted reddit migrations to be relieved that the popular communities in the fediverse so far haven’t been about crazy racist stuff or other extreme right bullshit.

I am also glad that I’m getting away from reddit’s general political shitposting, which was more left leaning. You couldn’t have any proper discourse on there, and even I with my generally more left leaning views recognized that.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (27 children)

I left reddit because of the censorship there and the freedom here. how does that make one a nazi wtf o_O

[–] [email protected] 90 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What stuff of yours was censored?

That is the key question.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I was banned from a bunch of subs all at once because I said in one (I'm still not sure which one), that I don't think children should undergo gender or sex transition.

[–] [email protected] 112 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

What a boring and unnecessary opinion to have. You're not their doctor, they arent your patients, what business is it of yours? and to go on about sharing that uneducated, untrained, unsolicited opinion online and then complaining about censorship when your medical advice is not well received.. I just can't wrap my head around the entitlement.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

You're not their doctor, they arent your patients, what business is it of yours?

ok, so if you're not a doctor you can have no opinion on healthcare now? ridiculous statement. i think healthcare should be free. i don't work in healthcare or health insurance. so am i just supposed to shut the fuck up and know my place?

no, I have my opinion and I'm going to share it and @JasSmith has his opinion and he's going to share it. that's the whole point of having discussion boards. the last thing i want is this place to become an echo chamber

i think kids should be able to transition. but it's also not so simple a conversation when you're making permanent changes to teenage kids - https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/

kids are fickle creatures and fads catch on - all of a sudden we see a dramatic rise in kids wanting to transition - like 4400% increase in girls wanting to transition to boys. is it because we are now more accepting as a society or is it social contagion? probably both and it's a serious topic we need to address if we actually do want the best for the kids. we need to keep ideology out of healthcare and make sure each individual kid is taken care of with whatever is best for them - transitioning is not always the best option. but sometimes it is.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

It's so funny to me this person don't ever seem to have the same concerns about the nose jobs, boob jobs, lip enhancements, etc that are also being done on teens AND CHILDREN. I hear nothing from you about the performance enhancing drugs for teenage boys, or the altering of the bodies of gymnasts who also start in their early childhood. In the case of the latter, they get stunted growth because the intensive amount of training affects hormones and delays puberty. Gee what other thing that you argue about sounds similar to that?

Maybe you didn't know about those things before. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But now I fully expect that you go to all of gymnastics forums where they're talking about young female gymnasts and male athletes,l and tell them that you don't think they should do those sports anymore. You're totally going to do that right? Right?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

It's so funny to me this person don't ever seem to have the same concerns about the nose jobs, boob jobs, lip enhancements, etc that are also being done on teens AND CHILDREN. I hear nothing from you about the performance enhancing drugs for teenage boys, or the altering of the bodies of gymnasts who also start in their early childhood.

I mean, you don't know me, or you'd know that I also think those things are wrong. I also tell people that I think those things are wrong. Don't you?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

we aren't seeing a 4000% increase in kids becoming gymnasts

it's a poignant social topic. instead of attacking my credibility, aiming to represent me as biased, you should try to attack my argument

having said that, i support kids transitioning. i'm more upset about the "wrongthink" mentality where someone can't even share their opinion without getting pounced on. he isn't sharing hate speech he's just talking

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

we aren't seeing a 4000% increase in kids wanting to transition

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Indeed, I've been finding myself hesitant to chime in on this because I know I'm inevitably going get lumped in with transphobe Nazi facists because at some point I'm going to say "hey hang on, there's some nuance here that you're missing."

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Ah yes the great source of the New York post. I don’t think you are being harmful on purpose but I do believe that by spreading shit like this you are harming trans people. There is no trans epidemic or social fad. That opinion is absolutely ridiculous. I have a close family member who is trans and the difficulty of even getting hormones is extreme. Multiple meetings with psychologists and endocrinologist, many exams and paperwork, not even mentioning the bureaucracy you have to deal with afterwards. And this is as an adult, transitioning as a minor is way way harder. No one just gets transitioned in an accident, and 99% don’t regret it. Now on the flip side 30-50% of trans kids want to commit suicide due to societal pressure and bullying. The only „cure“ for gender dysphoria is, shocking I know, transitioning. So when people say to protect trans kids, it’s literally protecting them from self harm or from getting attacked. Also, do you really think that more people identify as trans because it’s a „fad“ or maybe it’s because your can finally openly talk about it! It’s like saying that the rise of left handed people after them not being retrained in school anymore is a social fad. It’s a stupid opinion. Whenever you have more societal acceptance of something more people will feel safe coming out. I understand that some people are scared of their kids being transed by the woke liberal teachers but the same people also think that Obama turned the frogs gay.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

See the problem here is that you forgot that opinions are only allowed to include concerns or nuances that are on the approved list.

Anything you might be concerned about that isn't on the approved list puts you straight into wrongthink, double plus ungood.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The problem is that there's a very big difference between wanting a blanket ban on transition preparation and wanting the actual people involved (the trans kid, the parents, and the doctors) to do a better job of evaluating the situation and working out the best path for each case.

While your opinion may be more reasonable you should be careful to not assume they share your opinion. A lot of people don't realize that the common choice for "transition" treatments for teens does not transition them, but rather delays/suppresses puberty in such a way that they can choose which way to go at a later time. Banning this treatment forces a choice and disallows a trans person's ability to fully transition once of age.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You have some points, but "not well recieved" would be downvotes. I think banning is censorship and can be a fair complaint.

With that said, maybe the sub had posted rules that were violated. It isn't like OP couldn't create their own sub if that was the situation.

Banning people from communication spaces though should be a concerning behavior. It goes both ways.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If your goal is to have a safe space for an oppressed minority group to express themselves, allowing transphobes to go about "just asking questions" and harassing people shuts down conversation of a group that actually has their freedom of expression threatened. Allowing harassment is more censorship than banning it. And no one should have the expectation of being able to just go into anyone's house and shit on their floor without consequence. And that might mean being banned from going to all of their friend's houses as well.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But you don't know what they said or what the community was. You are missing my general point. Please don't support general fascism behavior, whether it is from the right or left.

On top of that, this isn't somebody's house. That isn't a good analogy.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 year ago (6 children)

They already said quite clearly that they're transphobic. The "I don't think children should undergo gender or sex transition" is almost verbatim an anti-trans talking point.

Here's some actual research on the subject of trans people, including trans youth, and suicide risk. With citations;

Bauer, et al., 2015: Transition vastly reduces risks of suicide attempts, and the farther along in transition someone is the lower that risk gets.

de Vries, et al, 2014: A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides trans youth the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults. All showed significant improvement in their psychological health, and they had notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among trans children living as their natal sex. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population.

Gorton, 2011 (Prepared for the San Francisco Department of Public Health): “In a cross-sectional study of 141 transgender patients, Kuiper and Cohen-Kittenis found that after medical intervention and treatments, suicide fell from 19 percent to zero percent in transgender men and from 24 percent to 6 percent in transgender women.)”

Murad, et al., 2010: "Significant decrease in suicidality post-treatment. The average reduction was from 30% pretreatment to 8% post treatment."

De Cuypere, et al., 2006: Rate of suicide attempts dropped dramatically from 29.3% to 5.1% after receiving medical and surgical treatment among Dutch patients treated from 1986-2001.

UK study: "Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition.

Heylens, 2014: Found that the psychological state of transgender people "resembled those of a general population after hormone therapy was initiated."

Perez-Brumer, 2017: "These findings suggest that interventions that address depression and school-based victimization could decrease gender identity-based disparities in suicidal ideation."

Here's a study showing that children know what gender they prefer and don't change their minds on it.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35951394/

Here's another meta study on trans youth who received gender-affirming care, and who saw a decrease in suicide risk.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33320999/

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have opinions on when and how children should be allowed to access cigarettes, alcohol, and motorcycles. Are those opinions also boring, unnecessary, and entitled?

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

If that medical opinion wasn't backed up by doctors and the majority of the medical community, I'd imagine that opinion probably would be.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago

Banning you should be a social media tradition.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

I get why subs that consider themselves safe spaces for trans folk would ban you for that.

Transitions are Never done willy nilly. Several doctors and psychologists will be in contact with that person before. If they agree it is fine, as Healthcare professionals, then it must be that forcing the person to stay their birth gender will do more harm

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Lmao, yeah you deserved to have your trash take "censored". Gender affirming care saves lives, and has a less than 1% "regret rate". For reference, knee replacements have about a 15% rate. Shocking how trans-inclusive spaces don't want transphobes around.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think the problem with your opinion is that it conveys that you believe children are being throw into surgery rooms and given sex transitions loosely and without thought to the consequences.

I think your real opinion is that you believe children shouldn't be given unnecessary surgeries. If that is true, the large majority of the population would agree with you.

In addition, have you explored what Doctors believe is a necessary sex transition for a child? What are those parameters? If you don't know, then I would consider your original stance to be of ignorance. Since you really never dive into the subject, most people will assume that you haven't explored those parameters and don't understand the reasoning behind them. That is why you're facing aggression with your opinion.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

What an excellent example of the kind of person who can fuck right off and out of the fediverse forever.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You're entitled to your opinion, but the consensus among the medical and scientific communities is that you are wrong. They are the experts here, not you. At some point, blindly repeating falsehoods based on prejudice stops being an avenue for constructive debate and instead just wastes everybody's time and makes people angry for no reason.

You're advocating against life-saving treatments. Of course you're going to get shit on.

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[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

fascism doesnt play fair in the marketplace of ideas, if you invite a nazi to sit at your table you've made it a nazi table. free speech is necessary and important, but we still draw lines for things like defamation and hate speech. another line is not offering a platform to fascists, they arent entitled to a seat at the table to spread fud.

you're like "but i'm not a nazi" , great, let's keep it that way.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

how did this discussion devolve into Nazis? I'm afraid you're probably part of the problem.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago (1 children)

extreme far right buffoonery

Like the title said, it basically started off with Nazism. No devolution of discussion required.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thank you for calling that out.

I may have misunderstood the intent of the post. sometimes I skim without meaning to.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Importantly, "free speech" is about government, not privately owned spaces.

We believe the government should not be given the power to censor speech, because people are born into it without a choice. Governments could use this power nefariously, and their citizens would have no meaningful recourse.

Nobody is born into Reddit or kbin or Lemmy. If someone doesn't like the rules of a given instance, they are welcome to leave and free themselves of this burden.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It certainly doesn't. It's just that alt rtght absolutely abuses good will and rules to the extreme and systematically hijacks certain phrases.

See Elon Musk's Twitter as a light example (giving in to authoritarian censorship, and skewing content visibility, while constantly touting himself a "Free speech absolutist"), or the_donald from Reddit, which was mostly made of bots, conspiracy theorists and some sane, but malicious people, banning anyone who's even slightly misaligned.

Some people like the previous commenter are then incorrectly shortcutting hijacked slogans to the alt right. Which was their goal to start with - increasing the friction, uncertainty and division.

To elaborate about free speech we want to mantain sensible environment. So we need to give a boot to astroturfing bots and far, far right neonazis. Though as with most things, moderation is the key.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Elon's acquisition of Twitter serves as an insightful case study of how a corporate CEO can turn what used to be a diverse, tolerant, and bountiful community of netizens with no home for hate speech and misinformation into a sad capitalist bloodbath.

Please take note, Huffman. And please take note, the internet in general.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

that I don't think children should undergo gender or sex transition.

This would get you permabanned and muted on r/news

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Yes, but the "censorship" and "freedoms" they talk about isn't about malicious censorship (I.e. Spez going around quietly editing dissenting comments) or freedom about how our content is used (I.e. Reddit refusing to let people delete their comments).

Their version is about spreading misinformation and hate speech of all kinds, alongside racist and facist ideologies unfiltered and unimpeded. They're malicious actors acting like victims.

We don't want any of that, we want all folks to feel welcome, which is why we have to shoot that down. To maintain a tolerant society, we must only be intolerant of the intolerant.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (3 children)

we want all folks to feel welcome

That's another thing they'll tell you, to add to your point. They'll say general society, or lefties, are unwelcoming hypocrits for expressing the need for inclusion while not including fascists.

They'll word the same opinions in a million ways until they find the way that gets you to allow them to continue blabbering intolerant bull crap.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

I'm a big fan of free speech.

Nazis scare minorities into not being able to fully exercise their right to free speech.

So censoring the far right actually results in a net gain in free speech for society and communities as a whole.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

It's true, those types will use your own rules against you to wipe you out if you let them. It's one of the oldest tricks in the playbook of bad faith arguments.

I bet you we'll see a version of that very argument with the Fediverse when Meta brings "Threads" onto the scene. They'll preach inclusion then use the old EEE tactic to kill us off.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's the Paradox, they use tolerance to fill the space with intolerance.

I said it in a comment below and I'll write it out again because it is a great point (that I have seen several times on Mastodon, not that I thought up on my own) that the only way to resolve the Paradox of Tolerance is to understand tolerance as a social contract.

Nazis start from not adhering to the contract, because they refuse to tolerate certain identities. TERFS refuse to tolerate trans identities. Neither the Nazi nor the TERF viewpoint is entitled to tolerance. Compare to Furries, who have no problem with non-furry identities but are often not welcomed because they are so very very strange. Tolerance is for furries, not nazis.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Going to bring it up again, the Paradox of Tolerance disappears when you consider tolerance a social contract rather than a moral standard.

Nazis base their identity and politics around not tolerating the presence of various minorities, and therefore aren't entitled to tolerance themselves.

TERFs base their identity and politics areound not tolerating trans people, and therefore aren't entitled to tolerance themselves.

Furries don't base their identity on excluding, invalidating or persecuting someone else, so furries are entitled to tolerance.

So, the furry boards stay but we need to defederate Nazis and TERFs.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

the guy who gave us the Paradox of Tolerance also gave us Falsifiability, They should teach him in grade school.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I always say that there is no paradox of tolerance, because tolerance doesn't work that way.

It's not a wide open door. No tolerance is a compact. It's a peace treaty. A social contract that can be violated, and those who violate it can then be excluded from it until they stop being hateful idiots.

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