This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com: https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781
It has also been posted to lemmy.ca: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991
Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it's important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone's politics, and I'm certainly not here to argue with anyone about them.
My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen.
Moderators of lemmy.ml are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors.
This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml user ban citing "orientalism" as the reason for the ban.
Screenshot of my own instance's modlog, as viewed by an admin
I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in [email protected] that had been removed with the reason "Orientalist article".
Screenshot of banned user's history on lemmy.ml
Here's the article that was removed, titled "China may face succession crisis". It was published by axios.com, which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having "a slight to moderate liberal bias" and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping.
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/
I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml's rules that would suggest that "orientalism"—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance's front page, and not in [email protected].
Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml
[Screenshot of community rules for [email protected]](https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/9a5a8a2d-cfac-4658-8ef5-77a885079756.png)
There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government.
This is where I went from confused to concerned.
Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml's moderation log.
Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It's hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml moderators. My own instance's mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml community. I've done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml moderators, but I can't be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism.
Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China's racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @[email protected] reason: Orientalism
Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don't know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn't behave like China. by @[email protected] reason: Orientalism
These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance's or community's explicitly stated rules.
Banned @[email protected] reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban expires: 9d ago
Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @[email protected] reason: Rule 1 and 2
I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml's moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It's only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules.
I'd like to raise some awareness about this, and I'd like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly.
I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don't share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml's rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.
Do you know what the most common profession for members of the NPC, the national people's congress, the main governing body of the PRC, is? Industrial engineer
Guess what the most common profession is for liberal democracies? Lawyers.
I don't say this because I don't like lawyers 🤣 , I have one in the family. I say it only to point out that most of what you've learned about China, is coming through a heavy media filter, from a media who only seeks to demonize a country they're in a trade war with.
In fairness, before I walked onto Tiananmen Square when visiting China, my local guide strongly implied that we should not mention anything but weddings or vacation spots (no massacre) if we didn't want to be arrested.
Being there was surreal and terrifying. Police with shotguns everywhere. The level of authoritative oppression is worse than visiting a small town in the South.
The "heavy media filter" represents exactly what I experienced as a young&dumb tourist who didn't know about any media filter in the first place.
EDIT: More info. Every time I walked past banks, or any possibly-questionable spot... police/soldiers with shotguns. Sure it's a culture difference, but I live in the most gun-friendly country in the world and their authorities walk around packing heavy weapons. And the complete lack of public protest was noticable and staggering. All I have to do in the US to see protest is drive down any highway. In China? Nothing.
EDIT2: And hey. I've worked with dozens of Chinese expats. You know what they all have in common? They would never live in China again. Mostly because of how oppressive they feel the government is. A lot of coworkers were "rural Chinese" and were second-class citizens behind the "urban Chinese" (confirmed by expats from the latter who were friends/coworkers with the former). The former had a passport that excluded them from entering cities because they weren't "good enough". The latter had passports to go anywhere.
I read about protests in China all the time.
So I just skimmed English Wikipedia (hardly a neutral source), and they say:
This does not at all sound like there are no protests.
There absolutely are protests in China, they happen, and this is a true fact. Until recently, it was broadly observed that such anger was directed generally at local officials and not at the CCP regime itself.
Recently, though, protests asking the CCP regime to resign have been seen. Which previously was unprecedented.
The fact that protests do happen and occasionally are tolerated in China does absolutely nothing to take away from the point that China is an authoritarian Police State. The Chinese Constitution is not respected within China.
Literally just inventing statistics about protests being suppressed.
-- Some guy, emphasis mine
Your response is fair, but I want to clarify my point. It was not to say that China is a terrible country or that my personal experience covers every inch of the largest country in the world.
It was to reject the idea that there is some "media heavy filter". The media represents what its viewers would experience with zero media intervention by visiting Beijing, or Shamien. Or (from expats' experience) hundreds of other parts of China.
And as to that, I feel I was able to hit a bullseye with that point, that is not really influenced by your response regarding protests against or in China.
Whatever filter the media is portraying is an accurate shapshot of the country, if not a complete one. I knew a single re-pat to China, and she was happy there. She could not, however, tell me that any of my concerns or experiences were invalid.
EDIT: And with all due respect, I would like to point out to readers that your post history involves accusing the West of trying to use propaganda to make everyone hate China so we can go to war with them. We can all have the opinions we have, but I feel that is a bit tinfoil extreme and not merely a "voice of reason" response like you present here.
If anything "this is what I saw when I was there" is a voice of "foreign reason" that can be taken or left.
EDIT2: (Can't stop editing). I'd like to reference you to a very wise person who said:
"Do you expect people to waste their time debunking your shit when you’re not willing to form an argument other than “I read this somewhere trust me”?" His name? @gnuhaut
Just wanted to point out, China is the fourth largest country in the world, behind Russia(1) Canada(2) and the USA(3)
Largest country by population :) But importantly, I think one could argue that China is culturally the largest country as well.
That said, where do you find USA(3)? China comes in third for landmass here.
So you cite me when I respond to a guy who just said he knows shit because he reads a lot and that's it, when I responded to your comment with an actual source? Do you think that's some great own?
I cited that you implied reading shit was not knowledge. Maybe it was a bit flippant of me, but you did quite literally try to invdalite my entire experience by quoting a random block of wikipedia about protests.
But I'm not here to argue. I gave my own experience. I am ready to move on.
I implied just saying "I read a lot" is no way to bolster an argument.
I also did not "invalidate your entire experience". I just pointed out that your experience of not seeing protests might not be representative. I didn't say anything about your other points.
China has 1.4 billion people. Do you really think they have the ability and/or need to "squash" protests and prevent any protest from ever happening? No. They have a healthy democracy where people are involved in voicing their opinions, and protesting if it ever comes to that. Please stop ingesting so much xenophobic propaganda and learn more about the countries of which you speak
First, China literally "squashed" hundreds of protesting students in the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989. I encourage you to read the harrowing accounts of survivors about how the military used tanks to grind bodies into the ground and then hose them into the sewers.
Secondly, China is currently committing ethnic genocide of millions of Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang.
Lastly, China isn't a democracy. Elections in China occur under a political system controlled by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), with all candidate nominations pre-approved by the CCP. CCP regulations require members of the People's Congresses, People's Governments, and People's Courts to implement CCP recommendations (including nominations).
It blows my mind to find someone who speaks so confidently about something they know so little. If you're so confident in your proposition, why don't you fly over to China and try a little protest about Xi. I've been to China many times. They made the rules clear to me: if I involved myself in anything political I was liable for life in prison or even execution.
Actually, a lot of what I've learned about China comes from books written by Chinese people and scholars.
Since you're engaging with me, I'll ask you.
Is there a genocide in Xinjiang? I'm ready to hear your evasion and denials.
Do you expect people to waste their time debunking your shit when you're not willing to form an argument other than "I read this somewhere trust me"?
Most of the world disagrees with you, especially the middle east:
Are what those countries saying untrustworthy?
A map like that isn't really reflective of any substance. Do you know what most maps of the US look like when defining political opinions by states? It's a sea of red. But it clearly doesn't tell a valid picture of popular support. And I'm not even arguing that makes any particular opinion more valid or not, all I'm saying is that its very easily misleading depending on what narrative you want to sell.
https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/E7LSY66ODVCFHEVJ7TTGJKPHSU.jpg
Clearly the vast majority of the country supported Trump based on that map...Except that's not true.
Are you being inflammatory and intentionally framing my post to make it seem like I made statements that I didn't make? What I refuted is that posting a simple map that appears to tell a definitive story isn't actually very substantial because there are many ways in which it can be misleading.
Let's first address the most obvious error in your comment. You said that I claimed "majority of the world support trump with that map", and my comment clearly says "country", not world.
My point is that placing colors on a map can mean anything depending on how you frame the context or what you understand about what geographically is being depicted in the map. I used a map of the US as an example of how colors on a map can be misleading. The vast majority of that map is red, which would lead you to believe that in a lens where red/blue represent two different political parties, would have you believe the red party has drastically more support than the blue party.
Now that is one way that a map with simplistic information shown can be misleading, but there are other ways to use them to be misleading. For example, the very map that Dessalines posts, why is it that nearly all the Western countries are unified in a certain perspective of China? Are you going to say because of US influence? It would be fair to refute that a bunch of independent developed Western nations have each come to a similar conclusion about China if you claimed that there was a lack of independence to them coming to that conclusion. At the same time, couldn't that argument also be made about China and other nations within the sphere of influence of China?
Also you're using a fallacious defense that Muslim countries are somehow more authoritative in source because the alleged victims of abuse are Muslim, as though no collective of people have ever hurt people that have identified similarly of that collective before. Wasn't there violence between different denominations of Christians? Isn't there violence between different beliefs among Muslims? There's a laundry list of abuses humans have committed against each other and against people that identify similar to each other, and it's often because there ends up being a deep difference of opinion on specific issues. So generalizing that all Muslim countries will support all Muslims in all cases is bigotry on your part.
China is an important and powerful trading partner to many countries, so there is an incentive not to speak up. If you are skeptical about the western media, I think you should also be skeptical about the stance of these governments.
To me the situation in Xinjiang is very concerning because humanitarian organizations like Amnesty International speak out against the treatment of Uygurs. I think they don't have a reason to turn a blind eye like many of these governments do. And quite a few of them don't seem to be bothered by human rights violations, violating them themselves in horrific ways. Looking at you, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Syria etc.
Again, I agree that the west has a political motive to slander China. And the west also does and has done horrible things. But I don't think the same goes for humanitarian organizations.
A lot of these western "humanitarian / rights" orgs, came out of the cold war, as part of an active effort to carry out regime change against socialist states and stop the spread of communism. Amnesty international for example was co-founded by someone who worked for british intelligence, and its other founder had close links to the FBI, and even had a hand in the FBI killing of Fred Hampton.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/amnesty-international-troubling-collaboration-with-uk-us-intelligence/253939/
I trust what Muslim and global south countries, as well as the Uyghur people themselves have to say about their treatment, and not these western "human-rights-complex" orgs hailing from countries who have done nothing but bomb the middle east for 60+ years.
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I think you're being downvoted because the general belief here is that reeducation isn't happening and that there is no solid evidence that it is. I'm also not very knowledgeable here though, so take this with a grain of salt.
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The downvotes are from you seemingly maliciously misinterpreting the point, specifically that it was the people in re-education that are glad they are there and not what was actually said, that the global Muslim population seems to largely support the re-education. By its very nature, we would expect very few people to be glad they are there -- especially while they are there -- but we would expect many Uighurs in the region to be glad that those people are re-educated, as the broader population of Uighurs in the region are the main group victimized by the many terrorist attacks that this crackdown was in response to. That is to say nothing of what Muslims elsewhere in the world think and why because I don't understand that topic enough.
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Alright, it could just be poor reading comprehension. Sorry for assuming.
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You were just explaining about the saturation of bias and then you retreated back to vibes. Those vibes came from somewhere.
"Trauma" can be a rather hard thing to define, but I agree in any case that these would all be serious problems. In fact, these things have been serious problems in the terror attacks that incited the program. Some of those attacks had extreme levels of fatality and they overwhelmingly targeted normal citizens (and not, say, police stations or military bases or government buildings). The cost of action is important to consider, but so is the cost of inaction.
In the program itself, people weren't killed unless you count return fire during those terror attacks. To call families "destroyed" when these were all temporary interventions that allowed maintained family contact (and usually returning home on weekends) would be a contortion. "Trauma" is something that will always be produced from a large-scale program in one way or another, and could thereby be used to condemn virtually any program if you leave it merely as "was anyone traumatized?" Trauma should be minimized, but variance exists. To use the most benign possible example as a starting point, a kid who loves his father [who is unrelatedly a Jihadist] is probably going to feel pretty shitty if that father is taken away from him for two years, but that does not mean his life will experience a net negative when you factor in his father returning to him after being rehabilitated from militant Salafism.
Just things to consider.
I can see what you're saying with the last part about timing. Given that concern:
Dessalines, along with around 5 other contributors, maintains a collection of sources on various topics, and Xinjiang is among them. That could be one way of investigating his stance on the topic and information he finds relevant (though idk which parts are his versus the other contributors')
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I haven't read that part because the "didn't communism fail?" bugbear is a cold war relic, but looking at the very first link in that subsection, I believe it's a matter of poor formatting, since it does address the achievements of the USSR starting with this paragraph (so you can ctrl+f):
And gives a bullet-pointed list of linked topics, e.g.:
etc., typically with one or two links per bullet-point.
I can forgive him that much because there is a huge amount of information one needs to organize in order to even begin to address the endlessly litany of (often totally baseless) accusations that get so casually thrown at communists.
Edit: Also, this is just the first link. Skipping the second because it is Reddit, the second is the bullet point:
Which is what it says on the tin:
And it goes on at length, hence being paired with an "audiobook" version. It does bring up capitalism because such comparison is inevitable (and, I believe, quite necessary), but it is more focused on the topic of your interest, as the title indicates.
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Any time!
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