This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com: https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781
It has also been posted to lemmy.ca: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991
Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it's important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone's politics, and I'm certainly not here to argue with anyone about them.
My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen.
Moderators of lemmy.ml are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors.
This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml user ban citing "orientalism" as the reason for the ban.
Screenshot of my own instance's modlog, as viewed by an admin
I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in [email protected] that had been removed with the reason "Orientalist article".
Screenshot of banned user's history on lemmy.ml
Here's the article that was removed, titled "China may face succession crisis". It was published by axios.com, which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having "a slight to moderate liberal bias" and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping.
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/
I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml's rules that would suggest that "orientalism"—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance's front page, and not in [email protected].
Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml
[Screenshot of community rules for [email protected]](https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/9a5a8a2d-cfac-4658-8ef5-77a885079756.png)
There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government.
This is where I went from confused to concerned.
Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml's moderation log.
Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It's hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml moderators. My own instance's mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml community. I've done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml moderators, but I can't be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism.
Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China's racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @[email protected] reason: Orientalism
Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don't know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn't behave like China. by @[email protected] reason: Orientalism
These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance's or community's explicitly stated rules.
Banned @[email protected] reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban expires: 9d ago
Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @[email protected] reason: Rule 1 and 2
I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml's moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It's only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules.
I'd like to raise some awareness about this, and I'd like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly.
I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don't share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml's rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.
Poor ban reason is absolutely a major issue, and unfortunately not a new one.
While some of those posts actually do deserve bans under existing rules, even those are very poorly done.
The last example correctly cites a clear violation of "[Global] Rule 2" in the deletion, albeit confusingly not mentioning Global and a flimsy citation of Rule 1, and also gives a justified and appropriate 1d ban for [global] Rule 2. But even so, this is confusing when there are global rules and community rules. So staff should make an effort to mention whether the rule they enforced was global.
Another example [EDIT- see reply from CriticalResist8] of a justified but poorly given ban was this recent one. It's a clear global rule 2 violation, but the reason "not nice" comes off as if no rule was broken, they just didn't like the post. Ideally, it would be something like "Global Rule 2: Disrespectful"
Unfortunately it's hard to know who is responsible due to the username redactions in the modlog by default (is it an individual rogue moderator, or accepted staff policy?) and therefore harder to resolve. Tagging @[email protected] and @[email protected], because this is a systematic issue that potentially affects the global staff, with significant negative impacts.
While I know there may be more pressing development issues, I think it would be excellent to add to the roadmap a feature for instance staff and community staff to write a list of rules, and have them as selectable options in the ban reason/length form. This will incentivize staff to give descriptive, valid and more consistent bans and deletions, which don't give the impression of arbitrary and personal deletions.
Those posts / comments were reported and removed for orientalism, which is breaking rule #1. If you would have left those posts stay on your instance, that's fine! We're not demanding that you moderate according to our standards.
Well, I think (since it's a common offense and not one a typical newcomer will understand as 'racism' or 'bigotry' in typical western discourse) I think it would be helpful to add the word "orientalism", maybe even with a link to an explanation, in the rules.
While it may be obvious to us, I think it's reasonably expected that a new reddit-refugee wouldn't understand that. It would prevent avoidable drama, lowering mod workload.
My objection isn't the actual decision to take those posts down, it's that the ban message leaves a typical user guessing and the rules can make it more clear to newcomers what not to do.
We could add an explicit no orientalism to rule 1 I suppose, although to me its pretty clear that orientalism falls under racism.
Hey I saw your reply and I couldn't really grasp how this would be so I want to engage in dialogue, feel free to ignore this if you don't want. I'm not looking for a fight.
I was on reddit when the bulk of HK protests and the crackdown happened. There were many people posting about their own government treated them brutally and violently to suppress the protests. What has struck with me was the story of a person who was lured to the railway station, forcibly taken on a train to the mainland and beaten until he agreed to sign a confession. Do you think these people sharing those experiences or sharing news articles highlighting their plight are somehow racist?
Now, I'm not a white person, neither am I Chinese. However my grandfather has undergone similar experience as a young person when he tried to protest against authoritarian actions of the government in our country. This makes me perhaps more empathetic to plight of people sharing their experiences from HK and sometimes I share this with others? Does that make me racist/orientalist?
Lastly, I've known a handful of people from China of which most were extremely nice and hospitable to me. Many of them are my friends. After seeing struggles they face under this government and their past experiences, I honestly want them to be able to live under a system where they suffer less. I really have nothing against people of China. They're amazing. That doesn't extend to whatever government they might live under.
I appreciate your response, and I understand that seeing that content on western-controlled media platforms like reddit, can be very jarring.
I maintiain many megathreads on these topics, but I'm convinced they'd be met with a negative reaction. People just do not tolerate anything positive being said about China. They've been inundated with a constant flow of anti-China atrocity propaganda from the western media giants, every single day, for years, in a way that warps their perspective, in the same way that some of my older family members have been made increasingly more racist by fox news.
It took me many years of being lied to consistently, growing up in the US during its wars on Iraq and the peoples of the middle east, to question the source, and subject everything that comes from these platforms with a high degree of scrutiny, especially when the US is the one doing the demonizing.
You don't really no. How much "appreciation" really goes into not adressing the meat of their comment? But instead attacking the fact that oppressed Chinese turn to international forums to voice their grievences? Your "appreciation" is hollow; valueless.
Look up any content on Chinese electric vehicles, the country's investments in renewable energy, or even the tit-for-that trade war in semiconductors with the US, and tell me that is true. Claiming people "can't tolerate anything positive being said about China" is nothing more than hyperbolic FUD, and it's especially disengenious to claim that in response to a question specifically about how the experiences of Chinese oppression elicits posts from outsiders, many of whom have themselves been oppressed and feel comraderie with Hong Kongers or the Uyghurs.
Again, you're not actually adressing their question - is it "orientalism" to comment in opposition to the CCP's oppression on Lemmy.ml or not?
China turned a loitering couple being thrown out of a hotel while on vacation into a diplomatic incident with my country, and then attacked, among other things, media freedoms (a fundamental right here) when a satire "news show" (think Last Week Tonight) covered the fact that China's ambassador demanded an apology from the government over it and had threatened "major consequences" if we didn't meet their demands.
China's behaviour needs no crooked lens to make people dislike it, even without taking into account whatever the CCP is doing at home.
Again - you are not answering their question!
Hey, thank you for responding to the above comment. It is a topic close to me and seeing how the response indicated they hadn't really heard anything I had to say, I felt like I couldn't really reply at that point except to fight and I wasn't in a place to do that.
With due respect, "I hate China's government, not its people" is a statement so common it could be the default signature on most subreddits involving Chinese geopolitics, so at that point I struggle to blame him for his eyes glazing over a bit, especially since you spoke so nebulously about "hardship" rather than specific problems your friends might have faced, which provides very little to engage with. Just something to consider in the future, I guess.
I'm curious if you have more information on the person who was beaten into signing a confession.
Forgive me if I misunderstood, are you implying OP's friends and other first hand accounts were influenced by the US media?
Hey! Thank you for calling out what they said. I had decided to not respond given that I felt I couldn't really engage in a dialogue after reading that.
So a thought I had, does this kind of reasoning extend to western sources talking about western issues? I think a lot of people would agree on the principle of scepticism towards sources originating from places with a completely different political climate, so extending that to include many different political leanings and not only orientalism, would be a lot easier for people to stomach. As I said, just a thought
I think a lot of us agree with you, but it's a potentially missed opportunity to educate those who are oblivious is all.
Having posts removed with reasons given is education. It looks more like it's an unwelcone lesson, which isn't the fault of this instance. This site should not tolerate xenophobia just because Redditors build and embrace it.
Also anyone banned can just leatmrn the lesson and make a new account.
Obviously that's a massively sophistical rule, but I think you know that, you just don't particularly care. The appalling way you run your instance in support and personal endorsement of a hateful and malicious community belies your actual intentions. If you're so keen to be the little tin god of your corner of the internet, at least be truthful about how your deplorable personal devotion to the PRC means users are not permitted to criticize the extensive brutality of the CCP's regime while under the authority of your toy kingdom. Just put it in the sidebar, cut the dishonesty.