this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
4 points (56.2% liked)
MTG
1959 readers
17 users here now
Magic: the Gathering discussion
General discussion, questions, and media related to Magic: the Gathering that doesn't fit within a more specific community. Our equivalent of /r/magicTCG!
Type [[Card name]] in your posts and comments and CardBot will reply with a link to the card! More info here.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Yes, I used to have the same problem. It used to feel like it was full of invisible and unwritten rules that all contradicted each other. Getting bullied if cards are too strong or too weak.
Casual EDH, that is: as you point out, competitive EDH doesn't have the same problem.
What I finally realized was that I shouldn't approach it as a game. I should approach EDH deckbuilding like a crossword maker approaches making a crossword:
To try to create something that is a challenge but beatable.
It's easy to create an unsolvable crossword. Just a bunch of white noise in a grid. But that's just no fun to anyone. A good crossbow maker wants the crossword solver to have fun and to enjoy the puzzle, to tease them a bit but keep it realistic and grounded.
Now, a game of EDH isn't a puzzle, but it's an experience.
I started out making my first EDH deck super weak (it's built around Tolarian Serpent) and have gradually been adding powerful cards or interactive cards or cards where I just like the art or the experience or the memory of when I first opened the card. I have a foil Rethink even though there are a lot better stack interaction cards, but it was just the first foil I ever opened so playing it makes me happy. The deck is still weaker than many of precons are out of the box so I still have a ways to go with it but that can be a gradual process of tweaking and modding.
I hope this helps.
Playing intentionally bad cards and shuffling them around for an hour doesn't sound like a fun experience
Yeah, it's still not my fave format.
It can sometimes be super boring. But sometimes it can be really charming and fun. For people who get into the lore, the experience, the flavor, or expressing yourself through weird combos. 🤷🏻♀️
For a Magic that's more akin to D&D than to chess or poker.
It's not good of people who wanna 💯 win. Which, granted, often is me, but that's when I reach for other formats 🤷🏻♀️
But the point of magic is not be D&D. In my opinion D&D is a terrible game because the rules are arbitrary and you're supposed to sit there and hallucinate or something. What makes mtg a good game is that there are concrete rules and a clear objective, if you have arbitrary nonsense like rule 0 and aren't even supposed to win then you might as well just not play, the whole point is to win like I don't get it
I don't like a lot of "on a whim" lolrandom hatpullery either, but rule zero can be great if it's done with enough advance notice. House rules can be wonderful at creating fair, unusual, and skill-testing formats, where you can compete and test your mettle even when you can't afford the hottest meta decks.
D&D can feel meaningless with a DM with a finger on the scale, but not everyone plays D&D like that.
There is more than one way to enjoy Magic, and not everyone needs to be into every way to play. I don't wanna try to force you to play EDH, and I wouldn't even if it was one of my fave formats, which it's not.
It's just that I used to have some of the same problems and frustrations with it, and my new approach to it (to approach deckbuilding as if I were a game designer, sort of like how I'd build a cube or set or battlebox or set of duel decks) solved some of those problems while other issues remain.
idk playing for some lore reason or whatever seems boring to me the point of the game is to win. And when I tried playing it's not always even the hyper competitive decks but I like stuff like mass land destruction and prison. But they players don't want any interaction refuse to play boseiju,fow or any of the cards to defend themselves from others decks. They just want to police what you play they want to force you to play what their useless deck that ramps for 6 turns before even pretending to do anything and anything that interacts with them in ANY way is toxic because they don't even want to play just win themselves with no opposition to feel good about their shitty deck. Like you want to play mono green ramp but I can't destroy your lands, kill your creates or counter your spells? That seems fair
They shouldn't be concerned about "playing magic" and other stuff like that they should be concerned about winning
Have you tried cEDH? If you could give a pod for that, you might find a play group more to your liking. Everyone's trying to win as efficiently as possible.
We're just repeating ourselves and talking in circles now.
When building a casual EDH deck, the point isn't to win. It's just not.
That's what I was getting wrong, too. I was like "how can I build a deck that can win when you keep springing these arbitrary rules on me like no land destruction and no stax? You'll just have an endless list of things that you'll think is 'too good'; if I find other things that aren't on your ban list you'll just add it to the banlist. And you bully me if my deck is too weak. And the games themselves are kingmakery bullshit where you hurt the leader just for leading."
That's where I was. So I get it.
I'm trying to explain another way to view it, where I'm now—if you don't wanna hear it, that's fine. You don't have to play EDH.
But if you're not even trying to understand, it's not fair of you to slag all EDH players, either.
Have you ever heard of a boardgame called Zendo? It's pretty great. Or, better yet, 20 Questions.
In 20 Questions, one player comes up with a secret thing like "Brad Pitt" or "A pencil lead" or "My mom's shoesize" or "The feeling of regret when missing out on bowling night" or "running with scissors". And then the other people ask yes & no questions until they can figure it out. The goal of the people guessing is to find out the secret thing. For them, that's "winning" in some sense of the word. But for the secret-keeper, they aren't trying to come up with the universe's hardest word. That just wouldn't work. It's easy for them to come up with something that the other people don't even know exists! The secret-keeper's job isn't to win, it's to come up with an enjoyable, challenging, but possible secret for them to guess.
Same goes for building an EDH deck. You're trying to create an enjoyable challenge for your friends while also participating with your own fun in the challenges they've brought to the table.
Yeah, yeah, EDH as a format has its fair share of fundamental brokennesses that inevitably there are always going to be a high risk of bad experiences, but if you're still in "the point of the game is to win" mode, you've yet to learn the 101 foundational thing which is that EDH is using the Magic cards for something else. You might think that thing is a waste of good Magic cards, that's fine, but it's another thing to do with them beyond trying to win.
You have a good basic point: The reason game designers put victory conditions into games in the first place is to guide play. Faffing around with cardboard with pictures and weird spell names on them is a pretty weird human activity in the first place. The thing that guides and structures that weird activity, normally, is that both players are striving for that W.
Casual EDH doesn't have victory as a goal (in the deckbuilding stage). We'll have to reach for other forms of guidance and structure there. Such as what would be entertaining and fun for ourselves and for the group.