this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2024
650 points (94.3% liked)
196
16732 readers
2285 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
It's kinda unavoidable that if one major power loses influence, another will benefit from the vacuum. You can't really oppose your own country's imperialism without making the case that other countries taking advantage is an acceptable risk.
This is more or less the story of WWI. With the increasing tensions and military buildup, socialists of countries across Europe formed the Second International and agreed in the Basel Declaration, which said that they would use the crisis to rise up simultaneously against every imperialist power and put an end to both the war and to capitalism:
But once the war actually broke out, most of them found reasons to rally around their country's flag. German socialists pointed to the conditions of serfdom under the Tsar and pointed to the massive colonial empires of Britain and France, while British and French socialists argued that Germany undemocratic under the Kaiser and had more responsibility for starting the war. They mostly agreed that both sides were bad, but they said they were only fighting to safeguard their countries "against defeat" rather than for victory, but regardless, for all intents and purposes it was the same thing. Of course, in all of these countries, there was considerable political pressure and propaganda pushing them to fall in line and to regard the enemy as worse, and many people did what was personally advantageous regardless of what they had said previously.
There was only one exception, where the socialists took advantage of the war to overthrow their government, without regard for the possibility that it could help the other side, and they did end up ceding a fair bit of land too, but they were able to put a stop that that theater of the meat grinder everyone was being fed into.
The way I understand the meme, it's not saying anti-imperialism is wrong. It's saying that being a tankie, i.e. simping for china and russia doesn't qualify as anti-imperialism.
As near as I can tell, advocating for peaceful, dovish, isolationist policies is enough for someone to be considered a tankie (ironically enough). WWI era socialists who did not fall in line behind their governments certainly faced similar accusations.
Since neither Russia nor China is peaceful, dovish, or isolationist, what are you on about?
And there you have it. If you advocate for peaceful, dovish, isolationist policies, you are a tankie because you're letting other nations that aren't those things win. The exact same logic that caused "leftists" to rally around their own imperialist governments in WWI. Germany wasn't socialist, so why should the British socialists let them win? Britain wasn't socialist, so why should the German socialists let them win?
The Defeat of One's Own Government in the Imperialist War, V.I. Lenin
That's an extremely longwinded way to avoid the question.
You asked what I'm on about and I told you what I'm on about. No question avoided.
You posted all that, and didn’t even answer the damn question.
What question did I not answer?
If the question is 'what are you on about' pretty much any answer is valid.
You know what the question is. We both know you aren’t stupid.
I answered that. What I said is what I'm on about.
Maybe you can rephrase that to mean something clearer, if my answer isn't what you're looking for?
Neither Russia or China are peaceful, dovish, or isolationist. You know that, you aren’t an idiot. The fact that you don’t care, and are only ignoring imperialism when it’s a nation you like doing it is what makes you a tankie, and a hypocrite.
I feel like I answered literally exactly this in my response.
What you're saying is exactly what British social democrats would have said to people opposing the war, that Germany isn't peaceful, dovish, or isolationist, that they know that, they don't care, and are only ignoring imperialism when Germany does it, and it's also what German social democrats would have said to people opposing the war, that Britain isn't peaceful, dovish, or isolationist, that they know that, they don't care, and are only ignoring imperialism when Britain does it, and so on.
You’re still avoiding the question. How are you advocating for “peaceful, dovish, and isolationist” countries if neither Russia or China is any of those things?
And don't keep trying that “well that’s just your viewpoint” bullshit. You and I both know neither of those countries could be objectively described with any of those adjectives, no matter how much you want to try to justify them.
I never said, "well that's just your viewpoint," or anything like that. Not sure where you're getting that from.
I answered the question very clearly. Advocating for peace necessarily means rejecting the idea that a given war is necessary to confront foreign threats. Peace advocates in every conflict, by every side, are frequently labeled as traitors who support the worst offenses of the other side, "you're either with us or with the terrorists," as Bush said. The tankie label is simply another form of this. I don't see what's confusing about that.
Eugene Debs went to prison for that exact reason.
Listen, I'm as anti-imperialist as the next guy. But realistically if the core of capital that has nearly unopposed dominion over the entire world recedes, another entity that deserves the moniker of 'empire' completely equally will step in to fill the void! And if that's the case, we should just support the most morally righteous empire. Ours >:-D
Nature abhors a vacuum.
Turtle Island managed to not have white people using such logic for thousands of years just fine
Multipolarism is not a vacuum. Hypocritical "Rules based world order" delusion backed by sycophantic colonies to tyranical CIA is a propaganda tool that deludes an empire into over reaching and collapse and "the vacuum".
I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not saying that imperialism is justified because of the possibility of a vacuum, I'm saying that the possibility of a vacuum is an acceptable risk for the sake of opposing imperialism.