this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2024
610 points (99.4% liked)
Technology
59958 readers
3476 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
It is good, period.
Local manufacturing is politically advantageous and may employ some people at the same time, but that's where benefits end.
Europe didn't reject Chinese face masks during COVID-19, and Europe shouldn't reject Chinese solar during a climate emergency.
Solve that first, and political struggles later.
It's not only a political struggle. Working conditions are tremendously better in Europe, Environmental Protection as well. Manufacturing photovoltaics takes a huge pile of chemicals that need to be handled properly to not cause any harm to the environment - China neither cares nor has any other incentives to actually do this properly, which is exactly why they are so cheap. Theres also the issue of poor quality, that if you're manufacturing something that can have a significant impact on the environment, it should "count" and not be waste 10 years later.
Not only that, China's subsidies are utterly unfair.
Destroying the environment in one part of the world to "save" a different one due to climate change is just ridiculously stupid and simple minded.
I see where you're coming with that, and in principle, some of the points you make I would clearly share under different circumstances.
But to me, even with the side effects, rapid rollout of green tech (even if its production is not kept to the best standard) beats slow incremental growth with good standards in place, given the urgency with which world requires it. After all, even poorly produced Chinese options very much do offset their footprint compared to the alternatives.
There are some points for concern, such as the use of lithium ion batteries, for example, but Chinese companies also think ahead and implement alternative options - in case of batteries, they increasingly work with sodium-ion instead.
As per "unfair" subsidies - I'd rather urge all countries to go all in and compete on those, rather than complain about those who implemented them. Subsidies for green tech are essential to secure our future, they boost the green industry and expedite its expansion, and they should only be seen as a good, not the evil.
Source for this? Cadmium is exclusive to 1 US manufacturer.
The argument is always "solar/wind still use chemicals" and never "this is the net reliance on extractive industry by energy source".
That said, general energy conservation is still important. You can't cut emissions if all your new power just gets funnelled into Grok style AI.
I don't know that processing silicon is a polluting activity. There is heat involved, and some Chinese producers are 100% solar powered for their processing. Though I'm sure bulldozers or shipps/trucks are involved in obtaining sand.
I'm not a fan of any appeals to gatekeep energy use to "just essentials" instead permitting growth that people want, and cleaning up the energy use involved.
There's a huge gulf between essential and wasteful.
Solar manufacturing is not destroying China's environment, fossil fuels are. By a massive margin.
They need to get off that merry go round as quickly as possible. While the efforts they've made are incredible it needs to continue to accelerate.
I wouldn't say they've achieved these prices through subsidies in the way many people think. government support pushed their entire renewable industry ecosystem, western manufacturing went belly up, and now they are reaping the benefits.
It seems like China is putting a lot of efforts into becoming environmentally cleaner in the last few years though. I'm hoping that they've finally realized that pollution is bad.
There's something called an environmental Kuznets curve that suggests that a population will sacrifice environmental health to industrial degradation in favor of per capita income up to a point, after which they are affluent enough to care, and after this environmental health improves. China seems to be at the inflection point.
They were at the inflection point back in 2008. They've been full tilt towards the improvement side of the curve for nearly two decades.
There are legitimate strategic concerns with sourcing things long-term from potentially hostile states.
Europe should absolutely take advantage of current Chinese production to improve their own green energy efforts, but looking into local production in addition is not just a 'for-show' move. As sanctions on Russia show, dependence on markets that can potentially turn hostile can be very damaging.
Sure, that's what I threw in the "politically advantageous" bucket to not expand on it too much
Though I do not expect China to blackmail Europe with solar, but I see the concern.