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this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2024
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Fire Memes for Traitor Haters
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Where we meme (joking in tone and detail, serious in sentiment) about General Sherman, the Civil War, and how the secesh traitors had it coming.
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No bigotry. The Union, or at least the part of the Union WE support, fought AGAINST that shite. We are anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-homophobic, anti-transphobic, and in general anti-bigot here, even if not all the lads in Union blue uniforms were.
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No Confederate sympathizing. Anti-democratic racist slaver traitors don't deserve shit.
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The colonization idea was widely supported at the time, including by prominent free African-Americans. Furthermore, Lincoln's ideas are greatly shaped not only by the changing conditions of the US, but also by his residency in DC during the presidency, during which he became exposed to more African-Americans than he had before. One of his final speeches was advocating for suffrage for freedmen, for Christ's sake. The man was racist in a manner not uncommon to his time, but hardly to the degree claimed - that slavery was a natural consequence of a mixed nation.
The Corwin Amendment was a desperate Hail Mary on the eve of the Civil War to try to prevent secession and what the North realized (but the South did not) would be a brutal and bloody war. It failed.
More than that - the Union had become radicalized by the failure of the 'peaceful' attempts to contain slavery, by the blatantly traitorous behavior of the South, and by the conditions seen by Union soldiers and government workers in the South, many of whom had not been to slave-holding states before, and certainly most not in a condition where slaves could attest to their own conditions without a watchful eye and ear over them.
The Republican Party itself was quite explicitly an anti-slavery party - the only question was whether it was acceptable to allow it to die out (as Lincoln and the Moderates argued) or if it should be stamped out immediately (as the Radicals argued).
I agree with you that his views evolved over time, but your assertion that he did not at one point live up to the degree of racism that I claimed doesn't mesh very well with this quote from his debate with Stephen Douglas in 1858:
At his White House meeting with black thought leaders in 1862, he said:
This certainly indicates that he still saw an inequality and animosity between black and white people. And while he did eventually come to agree with those who vehemently opposed resettlement of black people, it was really only after the spectacular failure of Île à Vache (a colony off the coast of Haiti) in 1863-64 that he abandoned his original position.
Which, on its own, is still very far from saying slavery was a natural consequence.
But... It wasn't on its own. Did you not see the quote directly above it??
Yes, I saw it, that still doesn't saw he's in favor of slavery.
Ok, but I never said that he was in favor of slavery. That's a completely separate thing from the thing I said. I said that he thought that slavery was a natural consequence of black people and white people living together. The quote I just pointed you to says precisely that. Specifically, this part of the quote:
He's saying that there necessarily exists conditions for servitude in a mixed-race country, and that he wants white people to maintain their dominant position. This isn't to say that he thinks slavery is good, just that it's inevitable.
I honestly don't understand what your argument is anymore. You originally took issue with my assertion that he thought slavery was inevitable, and I provided direct proof showing that was the case. What are you still arguing about?
It literally doesn't say anything about slavery. You... you DO realize that postwar racial relations were still largely built on a foundation of superior and inferior without slavery, right? Like, "I'm a racist who believes that one race must dominate a society when two mix" still does not equate to "... and that form of domination is naturally slavery"
Pretty clearly I'm arguing that you don't understand the quote you yourself provided.
Ok, that makes sense. I don't agree that you were clearly arguing that until this moment; I was, in fact, very confused as to what you were saying. But perhaps you're right that I'm misinterpreting the quote. I would argue, however, that social dominance and slavery are not too distant from each other. A big part of the justification that slavers used to salve their consciences was that blacks were naturally inferior to whites, therefore it was only natural that this state of affairs would end in slavery. Lincoln's aping of that logic in an era where a significant number of people used it to justify slavery might not, as you suggest, mean that he thought slavery was inevitable (as the slavers did). But it certainly muddies the waters.
I will concede this point, however; because it's not possible to get into his head at the moment he said those words and see precisely what he meant by them, the issue is muddy enough that he could have meant simply that there would necessarily be first and second class citizens in a mixed country, and not that this condition would necessarily lead to slavery. That being said, it doesn't detract much from the rest of my point, which was, as KevonLooney said, that the union was not at the outset particularly interested in outlawing slavery.
Edit: also, this quote was pre-war, not post-war. He said it in 1858.
My point in pointing out postwar relations was not to assert that 1858 was postwar, but to present a time when slavery was very much abolished and public opinion was very much against slavery, yet a racist hierarchy still existed - ie presenting what Lincoln said in '58 as wholly compatible with an anti-slavery stance, even if not one we would find laudable by modern standards.
Fair enough.