smoking-stag at 2024-03-13 17:41:00+00:00 ID: kupah2y

is it not cultural eugenics?

I don't think eugenics would be the right way to describe it. As others are describing, the tests are not mandatory, nor is abortion.

It is people making free choices, whereas, the way I would use eugenics, requires some sort of structural coercion, such as the test being mandatory, or state sponsored propaganda campaigns spreading the idea that it is "good for society" to avoid children with developmental handicaps.

crazymissdaisy87 at 2024-03-13 15:31:05+00:00 ID: kuotrx9

Firstly the scan is optional.

Secondly, no one encourages abortion if it says risk of downs syndrome, it is merely an option.

Thirdly you forget all the other things that go along with a downs syndrome diagnosis: heart disease, dementia, respiratory issues, autoimmune, need for specialised care, the list goes on and on. My husband is very firm about downs being a dealbreaker because he worked with those with downs syndrome who do not live a happy quality life. You never know until the child is born and grows.

At to that a need of public assistance and care, in a system that is not working as it should, subjecting a child to that willingly also plays a part. As I said, you do not know how many more ailments they have, how the quality of life is until they live.

Full respect to anyone making the choice, no matter the choice. It is not an easy one

Obstructionitist at 2024-03-13 15:57:47+00:00 ID: kuoylsd

Down's Syndrome comes with a lot of complications. It makes life more difficult for everyone. When you can detect it this early, I have no objection whatsoever with people deciding to have an abortion, due to high risk of Down's Syndrome. Abortion isn't really a big deal here, since we generally don't let made-up sky-fairies make grand decisions about how we live our lives. Down's Syndrome is an error in the chromosomes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with aborting a fetus which has such an error. If you could detect other syndromes and diseases, that causes significant and life-long complications and degradations in quality of life, with high enough probability, then I wouldn't have anything against deciding to get an abortion on account of such a discovery either. Autism is a bit different, since it's a spectrum and there's really no saying how the life of a person with autism may progress. If you could detect severe cases, where the person has no language and needs 24 hours care for the entirety of their life, and you could detect it early enough, then I'd have no objections either. You can call it eugenics if you wish, it doesn't really make a difference, I call it being practical and realistic.

NoneYearClub at 2024-03-13 16:09:00+00:00 ID: kup0m9s

I can see that y'all are very touchy

"this comment is honestly freaky as hell"

~ queen_bs

Du er bare ked af at dit trolderi ikke virkede

MrBanden at 2024-03-13 16:15:29+00:00 ID: kup1s8k

My aunt was born with Downs so I know full well that a person can live a decent life with Downs. I think the main issue is that if you can test for it, why shouldn't the parents be given the choice and why should a child have to live with a serious birth defect when they didn't have to?

My aunt is in her sixties and have the health issues of someone who is going on a hundred. She has severe dementia to the point where she can't even have visitors and she was one of the lucky ones. The average lifespan is around 50 years and there is risk of dementia already from age thirty. If I was told that my 12 week old embryo of a child, would be given half a life to live, I wouldn't have any issue opting for abortion.

Ladybug1881 at 2024-03-13 16:55:33+00:00 ID: kupaqiz

I know someone with a kid that has Down’s syndrome. He is born before the testing was introduced. He has many difficulties and has no language. He lives in a home that costs more money than he receives in pension and she is constantly worrying about him etc.

I also terminated a pregnancy due to another chromosomal error. I believe the kids often are happy but I think it is important not to romanticise having kids with severe issues. The divorce rate for couples are really high, you will constantly worry and who will take responsibility when you’re too old/not here anymore? We have an older kid as well and was worried how it would affect her as well.

It is a difficult situation but each could need to decide on their own and not being pressured to either decision.

f4k3account123 at 2024-03-13 17:11:34+00:00 ID: kup84i7

Completely fine with it.

I think the "they live happy lifes"-argument is a bit vague. Before they reach that point of being just remotely self sufficient (if ever), there are many years of effort, prioritization and hard choices that need to be made.

Children/people with disabilities take up loads of time. If you already have kids you also have to factor in the consequences of having a kid with disabilities into their lives.

Ultimately the circumstances for the individual couple are often times unique, it's never black and white... which is why it's a good thing that the choice lies with them. This subject should never be subject to others to decide, condemn or judge upon. Most will never understand.

TeosPWR at 2024-03-13 16:49:55+00:00 ID: kupc6ot

I have two kids, we discussed this extensively at home before having those tests made:

Before first child we were in doubt about what we would do, we never had to really decide, test was fine.

Before second child we were 100% sure we would elect abortion, firstly it would be unfair to the first child that we deliberately brought in a sibling with severe handicaps that would take the attention off him completely, secondly at this time we had some experience with the welfare state and now knew that everything you thought you would get automatically was false, you would need to fight, and fight, and fight, to get what we previously considered the bare minimum of care for a handicapped child.

Edit: I dont consider scanning for and offering removal of fetuses with obvious genetic errors and flaws to be eugenics, its just common sense that we use the technology available in the service of helping people have healthy babies.

cilest at 2024-03-13 17:02:29+00:00 ID: kupgmym

Right.. Welcome to Denmark :-)

This is going to com of as a hard and harsh rant and you may ofcourse disagree, but dont kid yourself or others. People with downs are not happy.. They know they are different and they know that they can never live normal lives. At best, they are mentally around 5-6 years old, they beome obese, they get bullied and they die at an early age.

They arent like people autism or aspergers, they have no skills of any use for anyone, they can NEVER function without support from caretakers or family members.

Families who have a child with downs, have a higher risk of breaking up do to the sheer amount of work and stress related to caring for shuch a child and its needs.

In conclusion, they are a burden for their families, a burden for society and they arent happy.

So tell me, why would would you bring an unhappy, life into this world?

twisty-turns at 2024-03-13 18:08:53+00:00 ID: kup8bus

I feel morally twisted about it; I am autistic and I worry for the day where they figure out how to do something similar but for autism. We are also at risk for complications and having a poor quality of health/life, a lot of the reasons that others cite as reasons to abort - I sort of go, "Wait, but that's me." I feel like what separates us most is 'just' that with autism theres a chance to have a normal level of intelligence.

I don't think that Downs is widely understood enough, I'm not sure that people always consider all of the positives, but I also understand the negatives and not wanting to have a handicapped child. So, I'm pro-choice even in this situation, but I think more needs to be done to communicate a more entire picture of the perspective life of someone with Downs.

It's just a bit scary to think about when you're this close to a whole entire outcome, especially when you also consider the origins of autism research.

liquid-handsoap at 2024-03-13 16:01:48+00:00 ID: kuozbti

Ftm

bold-koala at 2024-03-13 17:11:47+00:00 ID: kupmy7h

I had an older brother vith downs. He lived two years. And not to good years. It was in the early 60 and at that time he was the worst case the doctors had seen. It made a mark in My mothers psyke that she newer overcome. When i was born two years later she was in panic because of the complications in My birth. I was 6 weeks early and 3500 g so when they took me and placed me in a respirator she broke down. She was convinced that I had happend again. Luckyli i was only affected by preecplampsy (Hope that makes sense). But My point is that if she had the test and could have made the choise i Hope and think that she would have chosen abortion. Sorry for the long rant but choises matter.

FruitFuckerLegend at 2024-03-13 17:24:54+00:00 ID: kupq00s

Well, you are not the one having or not having a child with downs. It is a choice the potential parents and only the potential parents should be allowed to make.

And you are clearly not pro-choice. If so you would, at the very least, be able to distinguish between a fetus and a child.