This is an example of a logical fallacy called “tu quoque”.
this post was submitted on 23 Jul 2023
296 points (94.0% liked)
Lefty Memes
4276 readers
825 users here now
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,
as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Hmm I never thought this was a fallacy? Can't it be true that apple should pay taxes etc and you shouldn't buy their products if that's a big deal to you?
But what's the alternative? It is a big deal for me how these companies exploit workers. But it's not just apple it's all of them, what choice do we consumers have here?
Fairphone maybe?
Well, maybe. I've been taking a look at them since I'm gonna have to replace my phone most likely later this year (perhaps even next year🤞🏻) but I don't think I can go back to a non-water proof one and be skipping a heartbeat every time a drop splashes in the general direction of my device.
The repairable design, 7 years of updates and (I think) 5 years warranty are unbeatable tho.
But for the exploited workers matter I'm gonna need more proof than a couple pictures of smiling Asian people to really believe there's no exploitation.
Not purchasing luxury goods is an option. I have more sympathy for goods you're essentially forced to buy to stay alive that still exploit others and probably yourself
I don't know where or how do you live but for me and most people having a smartphone is a necessity more than a luxury. I did try to go no-smart and it's just not an option, and that was a bunch of years ago
I really dont think this applies as an example to iPhones. There are so many other options available that it is not an only option for anyone that is concerned about factory workers conditions. This comic just seems like an excuse for those people that want to save the world but also really want this one particular brands products despite the competition.
Also a great example of false equivalency by implying Apple product ownership is somehow as necessary as participating in society
I'm not sure how good an appeal to hypocrisy criticising Apple while continuing to use their products is...
Participating in your society and owning a car (in the US) are things you don't necessarily get a choice in, unless you want to go live as a hermit in the woods.
But you certainly can choose to just not use Apple products if you disagree with their approach. I don't even remember the last time I did. There is competition in the market, including more ethical brands (i.e. the Fairphone) if those take your fancy.
One problem with these arguments is that, when it comes to criticizing a product for its usability problems, it makes perfect sense for an actual user to have opinions because they're the ones with the experience.
But you get people going "well if you hate it so much then stop using it!"
It's a common trait of so-called "fanboys". For example, I've seen this on the Steam forums before. Have someone saying that Steam should improve in various ways to make the consumer's experience better, and then you get other people replying with basically this line. If a person cites some other site, such as GOG, as an example of a better way to do things (and a proof of concept that it can be done), they reply with "then go use GOG instead", for example. (Along with making up various excuses why Steam is better without such an improvement.)
It's not a problem, both are true. Yes, the argument stands on its own regardless whether the person is participating in it or not, but if that person wants to do something about it, it does help to not buy into it yourself.
Smoke it if you got it!
.
view more: next ›