this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2023
1731 points (98.3% liked)

Technology

34125 readers
64 users here now

This is the official technology community of Lemmy.ml for all news related to creation and use of technology, and to facilitate civil, meaningful discussion around it.


Ask in DM before posting product reviews or ads. All such posts otherwise are subject to removal.


Rules:

1: All Lemmy rules apply

2: Do not post low effort posts

3: NEVER post naziped*gore stuff

4: Always post article URLs or their archived version URLs as sources, NOT screenshots. Help the blind users.

5: personal rants of Big Tech CEOs like Elon Musk are unwelcome (does not include posts about their companies affecting wide range of people)

6: no advertisement posts unless verified as legitimate and non-exploitative/non-consumerist

7: crypto related posts, unless essential, are disallowed

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 129 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (33 children)

Is reddit owned and operated by a malicious entity? I used to be addicted to that platform, but now I can't stand it.

[–] [email protected] 120 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die.

I call this enshittification, and it is a seemingly inevitable consequence arising from the combination of the ease of changing how a platform allocates value, combined with the nature of a "two sided market," where a platform sits between buyers and sellers, holding each hostage to the other, raking off an ever-larger share of the value that passes between them.

From https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys

[–] [email protected] 33 points 10 months ago

This is going to be the most quoted literary work of the 21st century

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Do you think maybe it'll be different with a federated and thus less centralized platform like Lemmy? Or do you think it will just delay this process? Cause right now lemmy and kbin seem to be pretty good.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I think that the FOSS Fediverse platforms are significantly resistant to enshittification.

That same article explores what enables enshittification and what precludes it:

The Netheads wanted to build diverse networks with lots of offers, lots of competition, and easy, low-cost switching between competitors (thanks to interoperability).

Fediverse platforms:

  • are highly interoperable - e.g. you can use Lemmy or Kbin and still see the same posts
  • mostly FOSS, so anyone can fork them whenever they want if they don't like some particular change
  • most instances currently aren't operated for profit - certainly if your instance started displaying ads you could switch to another instance (or set one up) and still access all the same content as you did previously
[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Hmm yeah that's what I was thinking... May kbin and lemmy live long and prosper 🖖

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)

There's no business platform here. So it will go a different path. Buy eventually the mods and instance admins who are volunteering their time and money to keep this going will wish to spend their time and money elsewhere. What happens after the first round of people who really work to make a free platform like this succeed go away? If there's not a good deal of planning and acculturation for new people, there's a high likelihood that a second generation of mods takes over who have different motives and reasons for running the place and the platform sees noticeable changes. Or nobody steps up at all and individual sections just end.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

I honestly think the only way this could work is like email. So you either take the gmail like privacy destruction and ads, or you pay for a service. Back in the day it was bundled by the ISP, but now I think it's way more likely to end up being some bundled 'online service' company that for a monthly fee provided a swath of federated content and services. But that it hasn't sprung up implies that it's not a workable model.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I mean the mods and admins won't all go away at once, right? It's probably gonna be gradual, so maybe the existing mods can keep any new/replacing mods in check? I dunno...

Plus, do you think maybe a donation model could be viable for platforms like this? It's split over multiple instances so surely at least the smaller ones could be ran off of donation money?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Hard to say. My experience with people in general is that they'll keep going even if things aren't great, but they'll get upset. And eventually things will come to a head and there's a major change in a short period of time. This being a somewhat democratic platform, I would bet that we'll have that sort of trajectory.

As for donations, it's just very hard to get people to donate enough and often enough to support this kind of thing. Think of the regular donation appeals on public radio, or Wikipedia, or even The Guardian. They have a whole organization and system built around soliciting donations, and even then they are always operating on a shoestring. How often do you donate? How often do your friends and family?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

As long as humans are involved and we are looking at a long enough timeframe, the answer is probably always yes.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

In fediverse, the data is already public. You'll just need to run an instance, start federating and the data will flow directly into your instance. Whether someone will somehow find a way to extract profit from this system is remain to be seen.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Whether someone will somehow find a way to extract profit from this system is remain to be seen.

I think it's inevitable that someone will find a way to profit, even if it's just scraping the data for training LLMs, or for something like those shitty sites that just duplicate GitHub issues.

The question of enshittification isn't whether someone can find a way to profit, it's whether someone can find a way to change the platform to increase their profit.

load more comments (30 replies)