this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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Encouraging people not to vote for Biden is the most effective way to help Trump win. No amount of mental gymnastics changes this fact.
running any other candidate is the most effective way to prevent a trump win. there are no mental gymnastics here.
instead of exchanging pithy remarks, why not talk about what youre worried about? do you think trump will accept being declared the loser?
Do you really think you're going to get a third of America to not only rally behind a candidate that isn't the two-party front runners, but also rally behind the same candidate?
I'm worried about people refusing to vote Biden because he sucks and then the outspoken, proud fascist winning and stripping rights from myself and my friends, giving Israel even more support, halting support to Ukraine, and attempting to dismantle the little democratic power we have.
No, I don’t think that. I mean, I think it’s possible, but the effects of a big third party campaign are wide ranging.
If you want an unarguable example of a third party campaign changing the dialogue on a fundamental level even in the face of a loss, look at perot.
Not only was his campaign considered not to be a spoiler, but it rendered nafta dead in the water, just waiting for someone to drag it in to shore. There’s a reason no politician since then made it a priority and no media, political or popular support materialized to protect it instead of replacing outright.
If you’re worried about fascist Biden losing to fascist trump, have you considered what trump being declared the loser looks like? At what point do you stop saying “I was not Palestinian so I said nothing”?
If you truly feel fear, real existential fear, about Biden losing: stop worrying about voting. It can’t protect you and you’re looking at January 6 electric boogaloo no matter what.
Take concrete steps to make yourself, your family and your community more resilient, maintain your health and wellbeing, and avoid life altering disruption from whatever is gonna happen no matter who is declared the winner.
The '96 election was not an existential threat at the level of the '24 election.
At the margins we have voting for Biden or voting third party will do nothing but prop up Trump's dedicated voter base. This is your impact. You can hate Biden and still vote for him if it means keeping Trump out of office.
I don't subscribe to your belief of widespread violent revolt if Trump loses.
I say this a lot and it’s to keep people from wasting their time, not as some attempt to shout people down: I will never vote for Joe Biden again. You cannot convince me.
Again, that’s not to shout anyone down or be aggressive, but to firmly seat us in the context of an actual Biden voter (you) or a hypothetical Biden voter (someone else).
Usually when people talk about Perot, they mean ‘92. That’s the one where he was in all the debates and the one that brought nafta into the public eye in a big way. It’s the one that was initially called a spoiler for the republicans but later research proved was a nearly even draw from prospective and past voters of both parties.
Perot 92 is my favorite example of a third party run in our lifetimes because it shows how that external pressure can deeply change the two parties and was in no way “throwing one’s vote away”.
No matter if you stay with genocide Joe or decide to walk away from omelas with me, I urge you to reconsider your view that there will be no uprising if trump is declared the loser. If you believe he’s an existential threat, believe that January 6 was an attack on democracy, see project 2025 as a real threat, and recognize that the same base that will vote for trump cannot accept or trust the electoral system, it’s hard to reach the conclusion that nothing is gonna happen.
I don’t think anything’s gonna happen myself, but that’s because I don’t see trump as an existential threat, don’t think January 6 was a big deal, see project 2025 as the rights response to Covid laying the power of the administrative state bare and their plan to control it and generally recognize that the only way trust in the electoral system will ever be restored is through a trump victory in 2024 and a peaceful transition of power to the winner of 2028.
If we're considering foreign policy, a Trump victory means not only continued destruction in Gaza but potentially an additional genocide in Ukraine. Domestically he has demonstrated that he's unwilling to accept a loss and will stoop to transporting fake elector ballots to overturn the election. That's not to mention his platform which I see as abhorrent. I don't consider putting this guy in the Oval Office to be an acceptable solution. Voting for Biden is the only effective defense against this. I have accepted that we are going to have a terrible genocide enabling president after this election. This is taking a mental toll on me for sure but at the end of the day it can always be worse. If we don't agree on that premise then we won't agree on much here.
Yeah, I guess if you’ve accepted a genocide being committed in your name we are pretty far apart.
This is not to chastise or shame, but to convey a personal experience: no amount of what we now call self-care will cover lending your support to stomach churning atrocity or standing idly by during its commission.
When the people doing it tell you to support them or you’re next the situation can’t be made any more clear.
Please don't strawman me. I'm not a zionist, I'm not a proud liberal. My belief is that encouraging a Trump victory will result in MORE atrocities and should be avoided. I have accepted the truth that we will have a genocide-enabling president because, in terms of my participation in the 2024 election, that is out of my control. There are means of protest and expression outside of this election but, within the scope of the '24 presidential election and our casted votes, this is simply the reality that we have to work with. My phrasing of "accepting" is not in terms of complacency with my country's actions but acceptance that within the scope of which box I check on Election Day, I will reluctantly have to vote for someone who supports a genocide because the alternative is to not participate.
the alternative isn't not to participate!
the alternative is to give voice to your true beliefs and desires!
i guarantee there is a ticket that you would support. you may not believe in the party for socialism and liberation but there is definitely some group that actually represents your politics!
even if you don't truly walk away from omelas, never to return, telling the democrat party that you won't support a genocide isn't not participating! it's using your meaningful, powerful voice to tell them that you represent voters they could have if they just don't run the perpetrator of a genocide!
stand up and let them know that you won't tolerate their bullshit!
imagine even the most goofy outcome, biden steps down at the convention and they run kamala and someone else on a platform of peace. wouldn't that be balm to your soul? wouldn't you be proud that you stood up even on the vile and worthless internet for what's right instead of a poison compromise?
you have the power to make a difference, use it!
Down ballot sure, I'm talking about the president. There are two options.
there literally are not only two options. you can join me and vote la riva. i'm sure the greens are running someone if youre aligned that direction.
if you just feel petulant that day there's a whole host of jokers that are always around and while their platforms might be as asinine as "give everyone a pony" (see what i did there?), at least youre not supporting a genocide.
you have options! your voice matters more in the weird harmony of people calling for the democrats to run anyone but biden than it does in the discordant cacophony of those browbeaten and bullied into pulling the lever for the architect of our broken nation who's currently pissing away the cost of universal healthcare on weapons shipments to israel!
not according to people who are much smarter and better informed than you.
come on, you must be able to articulate your argument clearly without saying "a wizard said so!"
I could, but you don't care about educating yourself, and I would prefer to not waste my time.
suffice to say: you're not as smart as you think you are. significantly less.
Don’t do it for me, you’ll never change my mind. Do it for all the people reading along.
surely you're not just turning to insults instead of reasonable dialogue?
come on, tell me how you feel, what motivates you, why you have the ideas and outlooks that you do!
can't say i didn't try...
i tried over and over again to engage with you and find out your outlook but after you said it wasn't worth your time you started insulting me.
come on, you can do better than that!
tell me why you think what you do! tell me why you think it's better to run biden than any other candidate!
Why not tell me your opinion?
Come on, your ideas are worth hearing!
I haven’t been advocating for trump. That’s what you mean, right?