Casual Conversation

My friend, I cannot tell you how much I relate to so much of what you've written here. Thank you for sharing, it makes me feel better, and I hope it does for you as well, and you know that you are not alone in feeling this way.

I really personally have always had a great deal of difficulty having male friends. I am a very complex person, a very intelligent person, a very witty person, a very creative person. I'm not interested in talking about shows where people punch each other, or who kicked the ball into a thing. I find it nearly impossible to have any kind of meaningful conversation with men.

To me, talking about where you had chicken wings, and what band you saw, and what Sherry said to Tina... It's beyond nauseating. It's existentially dreadful. I need to talk about thoughts, feelings, perspectives, viewpoints, philosophy, hobbies, passions, art, anything other than what happened today and what direction the wind is blowing.

The way I have started to finally solve this after years of sustained effort, is to accept within myself that I'm a lovely person, and people want to be around me, but it behooves me to be selective about the people I choose to spend time with.

Basically I had to find the internal confidence to realize that it's better to stay home and tinker with electronics and have a wonderful time, then to go out and be brought to an utter sense of ennui gossiping and braying and having overpriced pizza that was actually made frozen in a factory 2,000 mi away

I started to really push myself outside my comfort zone, join electronics hobbyist groups, 3D printing groups, walking groups, discussion groups, different groups that I'm not necessarily an expert in, but just to meet the kind of people who actually want to do things with their brains and their feelings, and not just incorporate liquid calories and pureed chicken tendies into their guts.

I enjoy the fact that people feel safe with and around me. Most men would see it as an insult and a shame on their masculinity that people automatically don’t fear you but I prefer people trusting me. I am not a cave man, maybe my ancestors were but that doesn’t mean I need to act like one. Do what makes you, you! And don’t worry about being an inflated man.

transcend gender. be a human first. labels are for jars.

I feel like I do reasonably well with not giving a shit most of the time, it's a lot easier when you have a support system of people who are cool. With that said, I really do try to hide that I'm almost crying at the end of almost any movie, even objectively terrible ones. Shit still feels embarrassing.

I'm sensitive and expressive, but I also have self-confidence out the wazoo. The idea that someone else might disapprove of me expressing my emotions is one that took me me thirty years to learn and even now I still don't care about their disapproval. Oh, there's a time and a place, sure, but if I'm watching President Bartlett give a rousing speech on The West Wing I'm gonna cry and that's that. Anyone who disapproves of my manly tears is just wrong.

I've had a lot of this to deal with in my time.

Many moons ago, at least 10 years, something clicked in me and made me realise that I decided what being a "real man" meant to me.

Since then, anytime it has come up, I've interrupted or stopped people, or let them finish, and then told them that: a "real man" doesn't need his masculinity defined by others.

I hit an age and a point in my life where I stopped caring. All of that toxic masculinity shit should be ignored because it’s just plain unhealthy. I found that I gained more confidence bucking those toxic norms, than I did hiding who I was, or trying to act a certain way to appease people that will never pick up a phone to hangout.

Being sensitive and empathetic is a strength, not a weakness. It shows emotional maturity. Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn’t even know themselves. I’ve known men that would constantly give unsolicited macho advice but rarely had anything to contribute that wasn’t cited from somewhere else. In all of those scenarios, they struggled to find and hold onto healthy relationships and friendships, and they struggle to find their identity. They fill the gaps in with defensive tactics and poor or non-existent communication skills.

I’ve found that when you take risks and be more forward with your feelings, it helps gain confidence and the outward positive energy rubs off. If you find that you’re surrounded by a lot of that macho energy and it puts a toxic damper on who you are, it’s time to leave it behind. Surround yourself with the energy you want to reciprocate. If you can’t find that, spend time alone and find yourself.

Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner.

— Lao Tzu

I am 37, and I use these rules to try and live by:

"I am man enough to cry when I need to."

"The only requirement for being an adult is to know when it is appropriate to be childish"

I have stopped caring about if others look down on me for being sensitive, crying is an amazing way of clearing your head when you are emotional, a few years ago I got double flat feet, double heel spurs and a bad knee at the same time, when walking home from the bus after work, every single step I took hurt a lot, even after eating painkillers.

I cried openly and hard while blasting Sabaton in my headphones, and all of that gave the energy to keep going.

As an IT guy I find that my greatest strength is in my sensitive side, I pick up on stuff faster than others, and can help users in a more relatable way making what I tell them last longer.

Thank you for calling attention to this. To answer your question, I try to avoid toxic people. To be honest I still have some deeply rooted beliefs about manhood myself that are similarly hurtful to the ones you named.

So I don't know, really. But I've been working on myself and on being happy with who I am. It's definitely paying dividends but I still have some ways to go.

I've sometimes thought that things would be much easier if I were gay because I'd fit the mould in many ways. Except for the most important one, as I'm just not into dudes at all and very much like to be with women.

Having observed other men through my almost 50 years of life, I find that many are probably just masking their sensitivity behind a veil of foul language, aggressive behavior, and machismo. Those men I find particularly hard to bear.

I’m definitely a sensitive man. Like most sensitive men, I definitely find it challenging in the “yeah, you gotta eat 50 lb of bacon, pump iron 7x a day, never smile, and always take on a challenge” world of masculinity. I mean, we’ve definitely come a long way over the last decade making emotions something men can accept, but we got a long way to go.

Most articles I read about sensitive men are mostly about hiding it, how we’re not supposed, to, and then when we do we’ll feel better, blah blah blah. But I’m already expressive. I find it challenging, from both men and women.

It seems the media you're consuming about manhood is disturbing at best. Based on this men who don't eat meat, smile, and have a desk job are women. That's just simplistic childish thinking. You know that's nonsense.

A good man is in touch with his feelings. No one wants a man to hold everything in until they explode. That's boomer-coded.

community theater bro, seriously

a good improv community is great too

Yeah, same. To that end, i feel extremely lonely because i can't express like i supposed to be and have to suppress the feeling. Growing up i was taught not to cry, because men don't cry, so i basically have two expression, smile and resting bitch face. Even when the time i have severe depression and had suicide thought, i still smile while talking with friends back then, which kinda makes me think i'm fine.

While my current friend group is much more open to the concept and woman friend is much easier to talk with, i still find it hard to talk to them because it's just so hard to tell them what is actually wrong, because shit isn't stem from a single issue, it's a long running build up of the size of the mountain, and they seems to can't get that, which then got offered an unsolicited advice that is way off from what i feel. I tried it a few times, i pretty much gave up now.

I also find it hard to try looking for a partner in my current state. The last one, while it isn't toxic, still treat marriage as something the man must uphold, man must do this and have that and have certain income, instead of an equal partner i'm looking for. Looking around and seeing how the world operate around me and what's the average woman looking for, equal partner is just a distance dream. I'm chinese and this is in asia btw.

As for how i cope, my cats is basically my closest best friends, i can do silly face with them, laugh freely, and don't have to hold up my tear in front of them. I also went casual cycling frequently, i find myself much more expressive while on bike and happier, hiking does help too, i feel human when people just randomly greet me and i greet back. I also ignore people with toxic masculinity, a way to tell them their opinions doesn't matter, basically shrugging their words away without causing conflict.

I learned to be sensitive and expensive anyway. It turns out men and women like it. I tell my friends what they mean to me. I tell people what I'm thinking or doing. The women I'm with think it's hot. One straight up told me, "You're in your masculine but in touch with your feminine. That's hot."

I'm open. I look people in the eye and hold eye contact. I exist genuinely. But it took a long time to get there

Everyone has to find their sense of self. You might get lucky and the path to that is easy because you find external examples that match your inner self. The opposite can be true, and there's a shit ton in between, to the side, and stuff that's so unique it's impossible to find external guides.

As part of that, finding comfort and confidence in your expression of masculinity is a big hurdle because you can find conflicting things that end up working on that path.

There's been a lot of progress in both rejecting machismo, and finding ways to still express masculinity in traditional ways, or not finding expression in traditional ways and being free to do so without judgement.

Me? I had the good fortune of being surrounded by peers that were rejecting machismo, and adult role models that allowed me to explore my masculinity freely, with only joking commentary that wasn't supportive.

But you're right. A lot of men, genuinely, don't find their masculinity in line with external emotional expression. I even have trouble with when I'll express myself fully because I just don't trust people. And I know there's times when it is necessary to maintain emotional control until it's safe and useful to loosen that control.

And you're also right that women aren't always open to emotional expression. Some can handle bits of it, but still want illusions about other parts. Luckily, they aren't the majority, and it tends to get better as you age. Past your twenties, most women have had their fill of partners that fake being self contained. And past that, they'll tend to appreciate emotional honesty. It isn't everyone all the time, but that's the trend I've seen.

The key, imo, is in being up front about things. Express your thoughts and feelings early and often with prospective partners and friends. Let it filter out the folks that aren't in that place, and you'll end up with lasting bonds based on mutual respect, mutual support, and the intimacy that brings.

That's the sucky part though; it takes time to build those relationships, and many possibilities along the way will either drop off, or you'll be moved to part from them.

The great part about being a man, seeking for a sense of machinery masculinity and emotional intelligence now is the internet. It really is easy to find like minded men willing to hash things out. They likely won't transition into meat space friends, but that isn't always desirable or useful anyway.

Here's a good thing I've picked up though, based om your experience in men's groups. Work and hobbies are the gateway. A lot of men need to build a connection slowly. I know I do. I prefer in those settings to hang back, listen, and give emotional support. Show empathy, and as trust builds, that mutual exchange starts, for those that can follow that path.

That's one of the biggest benefits of being sensitive to one's own emotions. It gives you a chance to understand others', to connect on that level. It often turns into those men having their first chance to really open up and talk honestly about themselves in their own way. And that's a beautiful fucking thing to see.

Subscribing to a particular version of masculinity is just allowing a bunch of strangers to dictate the kind of person you are. I'd rather decide for myself and as a bonus it filters out people that I don't really want to hang out with.

I'm fortunate to have a few friends who are similar in that. We met in a religious group context, so that may have helped (this particular group emphasized community and sharing with each other, so attracted people like us). In addition, this group is mostly mixed company (women, men, and non-binary folks), so there were more opportunities to be emotionally open.

For those guys who are a bit more closed off, I find a good "entry point" is compliments and saying things like, "I appreciate you, glad to call you a friend." Their discomfort will be offset by the positive affirmation (which for these men is often lacking), which may make them open to it. And when you occasionally get the guy that retorts with, "what, are we gonna go dress shopping next?" or something, you can subtly imply that taking a compliment isn't un-masculine ("man up and take the compliment bro"). Just remember when people push back against that kind of thing, it's because they feel scared and vulnerable--don't let it throw you off or push you away.

Finally, if you need some inspiration, watch or read the Lord of the Rings. A bunch of masculine dudes who can kiss their homeboys on the forehead before slaughtering an army of orcs is exactly the type of masculinity the world needs.

It's a gift and find like minded.

I've had some similar difficulties in really masculine spaces so I can relate to that part. I think I learned enough about being "one of the guys" that I can sort of participate, but I'm not enjoying myself.

Honestly I haven't had the same experience with women, though. I've always had lots of platonic female friends through my life and I sometimes find it easier to hang out with women than men, or a mixed crowd is generally fine, too.

Don't get me wrong, I have male friends that I really enjoy spending time with, but they're not stereotypical guys either so that's probably why.

How do I cope? I just don't spend time with guys I don't vibe with honestly. Life's too short to hang out with boring people.

Historically, I'd say I'm sensitive. At the same time, I feel like over the decades I've built up a pretty mild manner where most everything that doesn't spark joy just rolls off my back. I'm also a confident person, which helps.

I definitely still cry at movies, and was kept up the other night thinking about all the cats out in the cold that don't have loving homes.

On what some might consider the more negative side of the coin, I've stopped having long term romantic relationships. They breed negative sensitivities and habits within me, and eventually none of it makes me happy or healthy. But, then again, coming to terms with my nature in that regard is liberating in itself.

I find myself avoiding the company of most men and finding people that are generally more in touch with their emotions and have some empathy. If they know what HSP means, all the better. Separating the wheat from chaff is exhausting, though.