this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2024
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

You only have to look at any anti-woke review for a few seconds to figure out it's only ever racism, misogyny, and anti lgbtq hate. They aren't like ''This is why it's woke'' with some philosophical discussion, it straight up is ''there's a black in this game, that's wrong.''

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 hour ago

So that fact is wrong, it was a Jewish man who escaped nazi persecution. I dont think this is historical appropriation on purpose. Clap back politics don't provide anything, and in this case accidentally lied. It's usually free nowadays to check your facts before posting.

[–] GhiLA 23 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Oh, this Lara Croft chick has to be a strong, independent woman, huh? Tired of shit like this and Metroid. Quit hamfisting women into things and virtue signalling

Never, ever, not in the entire 90's decade I was alive did I even hear anything remotely similar to anything like that. It was unheard of.

No one even thought about it like that, or even had the concept to consider them that way.

...until 2016

[–] [email protected] 5 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

They gave Lara depth and humanized her, and this made the horny gamer boys angry cause they just wanted to look at boobies and not think too much.

[–] GhiLA 2 points 9 hours ago

She had all that in the PS2 era and none of us cared then.

those games were also kinda mid...

[–] [email protected] 7 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

You know what was surprisingly woke? Smokey & The Bandit.

You'd think the truckers would be all white guys, and they'd be casually racist through the whole thing since it's the 70s. But it wasn't. Truckers of all shapes and sizes. And the main trucker character is friends with black people.

In the 70s. In a trucker movie. Set in The South.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

I'm just going to say that a lot of creative, innovative, or interesting things, regardless if they're physical items, narratives, gameplay mechanics, or even just a new process for handling a particular task, is borne from diversity.

We are different. That difference is a strength. The more different we are, the larger of a gap between how I approach an issue and how you do the same. The Delta between your approach and mine is beautiful. One may be more efficient, one may be easier, one might be less expensive to do.

If we all thought the same, and we were extremely similar in what we knew and how we thought, nothing would ever change. Progress would not be possible.

A great example of this is with the blue LED. Most companies have been able to make blue LEDs for decades. The problem is, they were expensive, and shit. They couldn't brighten up a shoe box.

One guy took a blue LED manufacturing process that everyone else abandoned, and worked with it for the better part of like, 5 years or something. He invented the modern blue LED in all its glory. Bright enough to blind you from across the room, and cheap enough to produce that they ended up in a lot of places they probably shouldn't have been. That experimentation also yielded a near ultraviolet version that with a simply phosphor filter, can be converted to visible light, and white LEDs were born

[–] [email protected] 4 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah, and the guy that invented the blue LED - essentially saving the company - got shit upon because he did so against the orders of the company head. They then went after him legally when he took a job at another company.

He actually won a lawsuit against them later but my understanding is that after legal fees etc didn't really come out ahead. It's a pretty sad story.

Diversity in entertainment is important, and ultimately done right it's also good for profits. Having a game, movie or produce that appeals to a broader audience is good for sales.

At the same time, some entertainment does come with an existing core audience and a bit of a "formula", so altering that too much does risk alienating that core, and frankly some duds get blamed on 'ism when the reality is they're just not that good or changed too much. "The Witcher" flubbed because those writing the scripts were increasingly out of touch with the original material, but if they'd also done something like make a Geralt (or somebody else significant) a different orientation, race, gender or whatever then some would have blamed that failure on the anti-diversity crowd.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

There's been a ton of Blame on both the show being 'woke' and the internet hate machine. The first season was pretty good imo, well done outside he fact it was a TV show with limited resources. But the second season was so badly written. You can change all you want as far as I care, but they wrote that season after completely ignoring who any of the characters were in season 1. And giving them intentionally the opposite personality, and motivations from the books they were supposed to be adapting. It was just bizarre, and insulting to watch, I get why Cavill bailed, anyone with the financial means should have done the same.

But it wasn't because they had black actors, female characters that talked and wore clothes, or mentioned empathy, and it didn't fall out of favor with audiences because internet trolls stank on it. It was just badly done in ways that felt lazy and dumb.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

Remember when Sierra had to hire an outside company to do King's Quest 8, and they completely ignored Roberta Williams' notes, instructions, and design simply because "You're a woman, you don't know anything about games, shut up and let us work. This is going to be an RPG, not an Adventure game, and you're going to like it little lady!... Who is also the wife of the owner, the co-founder of the company, and the creator+headwriter of the series we're currently working for."

And it kept happening no matter how much she complained, so eventually they had to kick them out, but there wasn't enough time to make a new game so the "Not King's Quest" King's Quest game had to be released to try to make money back..

And it was basically a shitty version of Ultima 9, an already shitty game, and was so bad and tonally out of place with the rest of the series that the King's Quest Collection on Steam only has 1-7 and the Reboot?

Yeah I normally like to root for the underdog game of a franchise and try to defend it, but KQ8: Mask of Eternity can get fucked.

I'm not even a King's Quest fan, but it's one of the most infuriating cases of sexism I've ever had the displeasure of learning about.

Imagine this happening in any other context. Imagine Square Enix hires a bunch of white guys to do Dragon Quest, sends in a higher-up to make sure it stays on brand, and they just tell him "You're asian, what do you know about good games?", and turn in a grimdark first person shooter that just happens to be called Dragon Quest, and Square Enix is in such a dire financial state that they're forced to publish it as a mainline entry.

That's basically what happened.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

There’s nothing wrong with calling a bad game woke if they’re trying to cover their blatant flaws by tokenizing minorities and lgbt. See: Concord

[–] [email protected] 5 points 15 hours ago

I think part of what has happened is a group of people has identified that a lot of modern writing is garbage, but doesn't know exactly what's wrong with it. The issue gets blamed on whatever seems like the most obvious change to them. There are some stories with better writing that have a diverse set of characters, and while there are still weirdos on the internet that complain about it, the general market response suggests people are most interested in good media, and good media can represent a diverse range of people.

As for my take on modern writing, I think "design by committee", by means of publishers and marketing specialists grasping more control over the creative process is the major culprit in its declining quality.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 day ago

Picking a game that was already bad for 700 reasons doesn’t make the idiotic “woke = bad” label okay. The writing in a live service game was never going to be great.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 day ago (3 children)

To be fair, what the OOP is describing is "diversity in the video game industry", not "woke games", per se. While I doubt anyone here has objections to the former, I also doubt that anyone here is a fan of "Dustborn", as an example.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I hate this kind of comment. A bad game doing poorly that happens to be "woke" isn't evidence that being "woke" made it bad. For example, Dragon Age Origins is pretty "woke" (especially for its time) but it's recognized as an amazing game by pretty much everyone. If you make a great game that's written well, it's probably going to be received well. The issue is modern AAA gaming just makes mass audience slop that is devoid of passion and dictated by suits to chase trends. Being "woke" doesn't matter. Being good matters.

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[–] captain_aggravated 5 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I'm going to come at this from a movie rather than a video game place, but:

Which is more "woke:" Enemy Mine, or She-Hulk?

Enemy Mine is about a human and an alien (played by a white man and a black man) starting the movie as enemies. Actual shooting war "We were in a dogfight and I was trying to kill you with guns" enemies. And when marooned on an inhospitable planet they learn to understand and even love each other.

She-Hulk is about Nth-wave feminism talking points. "They catcalled me in a parking lot and it made me mad."

You know that guy who does "honest movie trailers" on Youtube? He did one for Star Trek TNG, and he says "It's the future, and the Future. Is. Woke!" And he said this before the word "woke" was co-opted by the right meaning "anything regressives don't like."

Gene Roddenberry had a vision for the future where we were past it all. Humanity is beyond racism, beyond sexism, beyond classism. Even if he couldn't live up to it himself (He did put Marina Sirtis in a minidress and in a chair with no console in front of it to make it easy to look at her legs. And there was that really cringey episode where they go to the black people planet where everyone is all tribal and primitive, that was ugly) he aspired to that future. Probably the most powerful to me, he wrote characters who, when confronted on their ideas, would re-evaluate and even change their minds. Data called Picard out in "Measure of a Man" and Picard changed his stance and fought for what he now realized is the truth. That is the manliest moment ever broadcast on television.

I grew up with that show, I was born in 1987, same year the show premiered, some of my earliest memories is watching TNG on my parents' Zenith console TV. That idea of "we're past that now, we put aside our differences and we work together as a team of equals now" vision is what I thought we were all working toward. That that was the future we all wanted. Couldn't be farther from the truth. The radical right are actively avoiding it clinging to some weird idea of a white hegemony. Surprised they don't call the invention of the diesel powered tractor an affront to their heritage because it deprives them of a reason to harm black people.
Most other groups of people are busy fantasizing about having their turn as the despotic rulers. "When we come to power, we'll enslave you and see how you like it." That type of shit.

The people who call themselves "Woke" like the aesthetic of people who aren't straight and/or white and/or male doing creative things, but the things they create are basically never about everyone learning to get along and building better futures for each other. They make talking point grievance airing revenge porn and dare their targets to dislike it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

That idea of “we’re past that now, we put aside our differences and we work together as a team of equals now” vision is what I thought we were all working toward. That that was the future we all wanted. Couldn’t be farther from the truth. The radical right are actively avoiding it clinging to some weird idea of a white hegemony

This is true about Star Trek, and the TNG era in particular. No way you could watch those shows and not come away with the understanding that people struggled to be the better human being and had achieved significant gains in the fictional universe.

I wonder what TV shows the racists preferred.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Dustborn is a good game that has been incredibly misrepresented. Take the "you are racist" scene copied and pasted from video to video for example. It's presented as the game's Black protagonist just accusing two cops of racism for no reason.

In the actual game, it's one of the multiple dialogue choices that may not even happen if one of the protagonist's friends intervenes. The context that is omitted from the culture war videos is that the protagonist comes out of the bathroom of a diner and sees two Justice officers:

  • Talking about arresting her friends for no reason other than being tired of waiting for the waiter.
  • Going on a long rant about Anomals (read as mutants of the X-Men, which is one of the inspirations behind the game), saying they're monsters whose babies come out damaged, missing body parts, and that they shouldn't procreate at all so that there are "fewer scourges on the planet".
  • Asking the protagonist questions (which is fine for a police officer) while being disrespectful, like when she says she's in a band and they ask if she's the groupie.
  • Depending on the player's actions, the same officers may also ask if the protagonist and "the Black kid" from her crew are related, then among themselves argue on whether that's racist, to which the protagonist may reply with the Trigger Vox, which results in the "you're racists" phrase.

Also worth noting that from the very first scenes of the game, the player is discouraged from using the special abilities, Vox, as they force people to do things against their will, so many players would never see that reaction intended to be over the top (as evident from the in-game post-chapter choice stats indicating that the majority don't use Vox on other occasions).

[–] [email protected] 96 points 1 day ago (11 children)

A game is only called "woke" when it's bad. Balder's Gate 3 is one of the most "woke" major releases in the last few years but you hardly hear them complain about it.

It's the same thing with cyberpunk 2077. The anti-woke crowd can't agree on whether it's woke because many of them like it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 22 hours ago

I heard complaints about BG3 characters being romanceable independently of MC's gender and race, that it's against lore and statistics. But my guess would be that it would've been the thing devs wanted to do not because of wokeness, but because it seems fairer towards the player.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 day ago (3 children)

When a game puts it in your face that this character is is gay/trans/ethnic in a way that feels arbitrary to the setting or effected character, it comes off very much like a political move for sales.

Let's use soldier 76 from overwatch as an example. The way he was written on top of the are they aren't they thing he had going on with Ana didn't support him being gay at all. The announcement that he is gay came completely randomly and really fealt like a political move to add a little more representation.

On the other hand, we have good characters who happen to be LGBT, Ellie from the last of us, or my personal favorite Veronica from New Vegas.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I agree with you, slapping a veneer of diverse identity on a character post-facto is often just performative bullshit. At best it's bad representation, at worst it's cynical pinkwashing and pandering for profit.

But that's not a distinction I have ever seen an "anti-woke gamer" railing against.

What I do see them railing against is any representation in games that does not pander to their own personal preferences.

Did you not encounter any of the backlash to Ellie's sexuality? Honestly I think FNV only escapes a lot of that kind of vitriol because it was released pre-gg.

Shaun hits a lot of my major concerns in his new video.

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[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 day ago (14 children)

This is just my take on things. Feel free to agree or disagree.

Woke nowadays has a different meaning depending on where you are on the political spectrum, but I think most gamers think of it as corporate virtue signaling with often counterintuitive "not actually progressiveness" and ends up just stereotyping minorities. For example the DLC character in Kill the Justice League is an old lesbian stereotype and rarely represents what modern lesbians actually look like. In fact lesbians don't have to "look like" anything, but then you wouldn't know they're lesbians, and the companies don't understand how to do this.

Gamers can tell when a company is trying to "be progressive" while also having no idea how to do it properly, and it all comes off as incredibly cringe (Like DragonAge: The Veilguard) But when the developers are capable of telling a story, and integrate their modernized views into it, while making a great game (like Baldur's Gate 3) it no longer is "woke", just great.

Games with progressive views have existed for a very long time, and have generally been well received. But they never really started this "fake progressiveness corporate virtue signaling" until recently and I think gamers really only care about this happening. So it isn't about and never was about the political messages themselves. And proof of this lies in the fact that the same people who complain about woke games also complain about censorship in other countries (like the Arcane lesbian relationship being erased in the Chinese release, or game companies logos not having rainbows only in middle eastern countries).

I know a lot of people see in black and white, and you're either pro woke slop, or you're racist/sexist/transphobic. But reality is that most gamers (even those who complain about wokeness) actually are progressives. They actually don't care if someone is gay or trans or not. They only care about how that is portrayed, how belittling the message is, and how honest it is.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 day ago (4 children)

If that’s the case, then they’re just criticizing bad writing, like all of us are.

But it’s not necessarily the case. There was an adult animation that came out endorsed by Ben Shapiro that was meant to be all about conservative values. To show they’re not backwards, the protagonist has one gay friend. And, from that alone, the target base complained about the show being “woke”.

So the term is both wrapping a long way around towards the simple term “bad writing” and instantly called upon anytime demographics include minorities. I’d go for the Occam’s Razor explanation. It’s just hate.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

Not that there would be any game that meets their "unwokeness" purity standards.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Is that dude waiting for an American Black Woman to invent punctuation marks?

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 day ago

Please choose body type:

  • Body Type 1 (with large shoulders and no ass)
  • Body Type 2 (with large ass and boobs)

Ah yes, progressive inclusiveness. So much better!

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