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Chaos in France after Macron refuses to name prime minister from leftwing coalition
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2024
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lol managers and engineers aren't workers TIL
So essentially no one can leave then? First you say that capitalists should leave but workers stay. Then you say managers and engineers are workers…
So essentially you want everyone to stay?
I see you don't understand the most basic division between the working class and the owning class
You have no class consciousness.
I feel bad that I mocked you earlier, you don't have clear ideas about what capitalism is, what the working class is, or how our economic system is based on economic dictatorship by wealthier people over poorer people.
Socialism is about making the economy into a democracy, you don't want your private life or public life controlled by a dictator, why your work life? That's half your waking hours. You're living in a dictatorship for half the time you're conscious.
The workers should own what they produce, that includes management, it includes "skilled" labor and "unskilled" labor. It includes everyone but the shareholders and private owners who are a parasite.
First of all, I do not see how our lives are based on a dictatorship by wealthier people.
How do you then want to democratize the economy? Do you want companies to have a structure where everyone votes?
You know, there is a significant difference between a state and a company. When you dislike a company, you can very easily just move to another one, when you feel abused by your boss, you can change the job anytime. In most countries, we have no laws that prohibit you from changing your job. On the other hand, to get a citizenship in my country, you need to live here realistically for 8 years. What I am trying to say here is that even if a company has a terrible leadership, it’s not the end of the world. It will probably end bankrupt but people can still find a job somewhere else. On the other hand, incompetent leading of a state can impact life more seriously and most importantly an individual cannot change the situation easily.
Last but not least you are saying that shareholders and private owners are parasites is not true at all. They give money to the company. Without that, you can have skilled employees but will they work for the sake of enjoying life in a democratic company? I highly doubt.
you really can't imagine anything else can you? this is what's called "capitalist realism"
I can. But pragmatically capitalism has been the best option so far.
Yes it appears to be your deity.
You really don't understand the alternatives, it's clear from this thread.
There is a difference between not understanding the alternatives and providing reasons why they are overall worse.
yes and all you've done is repeat slogans while not demonstrating that your understand the alternatives.
You're clueless about how a socialist economy can function (there are actually many different ways) and everything you say is through the lens of your current capitalist neoliberal life. You're imagining micro-adjustments that betray a complete lack of understanding and imagination.
I'm not going to convince you or get through to you so we can go our separate ways, but you're extremely confident for someone who really doesn't get it, and that's just unfortunate for your own sake
What exactly am I not getting about socialist economy?
The ones who disagree with socialism are usually told they just don’t understand it & that it has not been tried.
Reality is, it’s been tried and it always failed.
there's another slogan.....
Look at the variety of capitalist countries and how they differ, knowing what "capitalism" is helps you to understand which aspects of them relate to that and which aspects of them are political, cultural, social. I could easily point to terrible capitalist countries and say it just doesn't work, but there are degrees aren't there?
Also consider that democracy was tried, reverted to Empire, then wasn't tried again for over 1000 years. France tried it, reverted to Empire, then tried it again. In those gaps your argument would be used to deny attempting democracy.
Knowing what "socialism" means would help you to understand how it has been, hasn't been, and can be implemented. But you're drooling on yourself repeating things you've heard like "but I like my toothbrush"
You're doing yourself a disservice, and at least have the decency to keep your regurgitated opinions to yourself.
There is quite a difference between democracy and socialism. For example, while democracy did not work in France, there were several other countries that have proven democracy works. For example, Greece, Rome, or even United States. On the contrary, socialism has been in many countries and failed every single time, no matter the situation. Countries of Warsaw pact tried it and 30 years after it collapsed, the quality of life in these countries is still worse compared to the Western Europe. Similar with countries such as Israel, India, Great Britain, North Korea and many more that have tried socialist tendencies but eventually returned to capitalist economies.
Same for capitalism, there have been countries that became quite successful thanks to it such as Switzerland, Singapore or Ireland.
So you're judging historical democracies by their peaks and successes but you're judging socialist/communist countries by their low points and failures.
Russia went from a serfdom to a world superpower. It challenged the United States for decades despite losing millions of its population and being absolutely devastated in world war 2 whereas the USA was relatively unscathed.
These aren't good faith arguments. You make every argument working from your conclusion backwards.