this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2024

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Justice for our boy (lemm.ee)

submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 5 months ago (2 children)

The man bought a gun and owned it for like 9 days many years ago around the same time he was filming himself on drugs. Every gun owner in a state that buy legal cannabis in any fashion would be guilty of the same thing. It's just a bad law because you can be an alcoholic (which is a drug, hence a drug addict, hence requiring those to lie on the form) with as many guns as you want.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Actually question "21. f" on ATF form 4473 is:

Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized
for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

So "yes, and alcoholics too, technically. Alcohol is a depressant."

Thing is unless you've got prior convictions or get caught with both the gun and a substance, or try to buy the gun while obviously fucked up on something, it's kinda hard to catch.

I suppose if you film yourself on drugs and then forget to go "no that wasn't real drugs, it's fake" like how they filmed Nice Dreams and didn't get arrested for the weed, and then people put a political target on your back, then yeah that might get you caught too.

Also it's a dumb rule and should be stricken from the form. Especially weed FFS, which also should be legal.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I am not a lawyer.

I did some rapid web searches to dig in here because I was curious about how this might be abused. It turns out that is better worded than it would at first appear. I think the trick here is it depends on whose definition of "depressant, stimulant, narcotic" you go by.

For example, the CDC considers caffeine a stimulant, but the FDA says it's a "food additive". So there's no FDA schedule for caffeine, which means you also can't get a prescription for caffeine pills, nor pay for them through insurance. But that also means it's arguably not a drug or "stimulant" under this definition.

Meanwhile, alcohol labeling is handled by the FDA, but it looks like everything about the substance itself falls under the ATF (it's in the name after all). The ATF seems to take great care to not categorize alcohol as a depressant and goes out of its way to never call alcohol a "drug" (example). And, as it turns out, (Federally) alcohol is not a controlled substance.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Interesting, of course, I still think the law is dumb especially regarding weed, but you may be right they have it carved out as an exception with booze/caffeine. I wonder what would happen in court on a case like that, who's definition would be used, or could it possibly be argued based off the definitions and it'd be the case that sets a precedent.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Are you sure about this? My English may be a bit rusty but doesn't the "or any other controlled substance" imply that only controlled depressants count?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I mean, alcohol is controlled, otherwise there wouldn't be a legal drinking age, or consequences for driving drunk, one might argue.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

One might, but that's not the definition of controlled substance in this context.

https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-a-controlled-substance

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I know, I was making a devil's advocate argument.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Sorry, I'm too literal sometimes.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

All good dude 👍

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant...

Alcohol being a depressant, it could be argued that "or addicted to any depressant" would be the more applicable part of the question, controlled or not.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

So then gun owners can't drink coffee?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Right? Another example of why I hate this stupid question lol

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

To me it reads like the author forgot there were depressants and stimulants that are not controlled. But I wouldn't take that as a sign that the sentence only applies to the subset of controlled depressants or stimulants.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Or idk, perhaps try to keep guns away from any substance abusers, be the substance they abuse legal or not.

But that's specifically abuse I'm talking about, not reasonable recreational use.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Is it possible to define specifically abuse?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Of course it is.

But preventing abusers from getting guns is much easier in a system where the default is not "until proven crazy, anyone can have a gun".

So where I live you need a doctor's note saying you don't have issues like that before getting a gun.

Ofc you can develop the problem after getting the permits, but I know a few gun owners who developed an alcohol problem and one so massive they started being violent towards others when properly pissed.

Both had their guns taken away.